In the past 8 years I tried several so called "entry-level" CD-players and none of them is even close to my analog rig. All of them were lacking emotion, musicality and involvement.
In order these have been the CD-players in my system:
1998 - Marantz CD-48
1999 - NAD C-520
2000 - Cambridge D500 SE
2001 - MARANTZ CD-6000 OSE LE
2002 - ROTEL RCD-02
2003 - MICROMEGA Minium CD
2004 - ROTEL RCD-1072
2005 - REGA Apollo !!!
After 8 years, I am feeling bored and disapointed. There is no match of analog sound in the digital domain?
What CD-player that I dind't tried yet, you like under 1000 Euro (US$1200)?
Thank you
In order these have been the CD-players in my system:
1998 - Marantz CD-48
1999 - NAD C-520
2000 - Cambridge D500 SE
2001 - MARANTZ CD-6000 OSE LE
2002 - ROTEL RCD-02
2003 - MICROMEGA Minium CD
2004 - ROTEL RCD-1072
2005 - REGA Apollo !!!
After 8 years, I am feeling bored and disapointed. There is no match of analog sound in the digital domain?
What CD-player that I dind't tried yet, you like under 1000 Euro (US$1200)?
Thank you
CD-players
Do you still have any of them?
Get/make a non-os DAC, for getting the most analog sound.
However, the musicality & envolvment/emotion feeling will vary from person to person...
The best "analog-sound" with "emotion" I have made, is the non-os DAC from "Pedja" (TDA-1541 based).
Arne K
Do you still have any of them?
Get/make a non-os DAC, for getting the most analog sound.
However, the musicality & envolvment/emotion feeling will vary from person to person...
The best "analog-sound" with "emotion" I have made, is the non-os DAC from "Pedja" (TDA-1541 based).
Arne K
Arne - I still have the Rega Apollo - what a disapointment!!! I guess is the Wolfson DAC that is not up to the chalenge.
Try a Pioneer DVD575 or similar.
Some people including myself have forsaken relatively expensive players in favour of this little machine. Gets closer to analogue than many CD players.
Plus you have the facility to try DVD audio and SACD.
I have tried three of the players you mention and didn't like any of them.
Some people including myself have forsaken relatively expensive players in favour of this little machine. Gets closer to analogue than many CD players.
Plus you have the facility to try DVD audio and SACD.
I have tried three of the players you mention and didn't like any of them.
I bought a Panasonic S29 DVD player... good sound, does not skip at high sound levels. It's much better than my old CD players. 60 bucks
rmihai said:
Maybe your problem is system specific?
I recently upgraded to the Rega Apollo and find it fantastic for the price.
I too love my vinyl, but find the Apollo is the closest analog sounding CDP I have heard.
A big 2 thumbs up for the Apollo from me.
Second vote for the Panasonic S29 DVD player. Have it feeding one of Peter Daniel's 1543 nos DAC's and it sounds in some respects better than my Cal Audio CL-10, either straight or through a Benchmark DAC-1.
No complaints for under $300, including DAC.
No complaints for under $300, including DAC.
I have Rotel RCD990 tweaked with OsCons LT regs where was 7805 for dig. filter and Tent clock.
Other player is Studer D731 (two more for sale) , and A730 that wait for new transport.
Both working players are best digital front end I ever heard in my system (and other top systems around).
Rotel is more detailed , laid back , spaceous player ,very musical , not a trace of digital sound.
Studer is the beast , very neutral , very musical , very coherent sound. It sounds like you listen to master record in studio. Bass is killer down to last octave , focus is razor sharp , transparency very natural , Rotel is like more transparent but in fact it is on brighter side than Studer. Studer is more better balanced.
Both of them sounds like some analog source , I love them.
Can wait to hear A730 based on CDM3 and TDA1541 S2 (double crown) , balanced solid state output.
Rotel is based on CDM9pro and BB PCM63K dacs.
Studer D731 is based on CDM4pro and TDA1547 dac with jitterless clock system that track compact disc base recorded clock.
Other player is Studer D731 (two more for sale) , and A730 that wait for new transport.
Both working players are best digital front end I ever heard in my system (and other top systems around).
Rotel is more detailed , laid back , spaceous player ,very musical , not a trace of digital sound.
Studer is the beast , very neutral , very musical , very coherent sound. It sounds like you listen to master record in studio. Bass is killer down to last octave , focus is razor sharp , transparency very natural , Rotel is like more transparent but in fact it is on brighter side than Studer. Studer is more better balanced.
Both of them sounds like some analog source , I love them.
Can wait to hear A730 based on CDM3 and TDA1541 S2 (double crown) , balanced solid state output.
Rotel is based on CDM9pro and BB PCM63K dacs.
Studer D731 is based on CDM4pro and TDA1547 dac with jitterless clock system that track compact disc base recorded clock.
Hi rmihai,
Sadly, no fix for cheap digital. The Revox machines sound great. My fav at the moment is a Denon DCD-S10. There are other (not cheap) units around. Have a listen to the Teac Esoteric units. I am told they sound good.
-Chris
Sadly, no fix for cheap digital. The Revox machines sound great. My fav at the moment is a Denon DCD-S10. There are other (not cheap) units around. Have a listen to the Teac Esoteric units. I am told they sound good.
-Chris
rmihai said:
As you just concluded, no CD player no matter the price will come close to your turntable.
If you like a challenge, build this:
Zero-oversampling DAC. Maybe you could experiment and feed the DAC only 5 V and use step-up transformers for output as well as some nice line input transformer. Even without the transformers, this is about as good as it gets. PCB design is important, much more so than stupid high-price caps and whatnots. The shorter the signal path, the better. Ask AMD and Intel. And while surface-mount components are a b****, they are a necessity for best performance.
For transport, get a $20 CD burner (only the CDMs in the Teac Esoteric and the PiTracer are better) and the Rockna controller.
Have fun. Stop wasting money on something that won't deliver. It's all marketing. They have nothing.
Hi phn,
I don't totally agree with you on two points.
Firstly there are some very good CD players. Spending a lot will not guarantee happiness.
Secondly, cheap transports have high jitter. You have already lost the race if you go that route. You need a good transport with a low bit error rate (and good CD's).
Do not expect a CD to sound like a TT. There is far more separation and dynamic range possible with a CD. Most cartridge / preamps are not set up correctly so there are frequency aberrations there too.
I love my TT, and my CD. What can I say?
-Chris
I don't totally agree with you on two points.
Firstly there are some very good CD players. Spending a lot will not guarantee happiness.
Secondly, cheap transports have high jitter. You have already lost the race if you go that route. You need a good transport with a low bit error rate (and good CD's).
Do not expect a CD to sound like a TT. There is far more separation and dynamic range possible with a CD. Most cartridge / preamps are not set up correctly so there are frequency aberrations there too.
I love my TT, and my CD. What can I say?
-Chris
Chris, be careful you don't get blinded by the price. Linn sells a $1,000 PC with a Linux OS for $20,000. This you can only do in high-end audio. $20 is a lot in the competitive world. The low price is the result of mass-production. The jitter, as in all CDMs, is taken care of by the buffer. But, yes, adding a clock doesn't hurt.
I mentioned this as a cheap alternative. It's to delude oneself to think spending more money will bring you happiness.
I mentioned this as a cheap alternative. It's to delude oneself to think spending more money will bring you happiness.
Hi phn,
As I said ...
I learned CD service at the start and have serviced them continuously. The good, bad and completely worthless. The current Philips mechs are worthless.
If you pay for "it", you may get what you want, if you don't, you will not for sure. There is no way a cheap unit will work properly at a higher standard. CD transports have been reduced in quality and price. They have always been rip offs, but now I don't know if good transports are even made any more.
The problem is this (aside from the thing being repairable and lasting), to get a clear, noise free and stable RF pattern you need a well designed and adjustable transport. The first thing to do the align the head mechanically. You can not do that now. Secondly you need to be able to align the servos. The newer active servo's (self aligning) will never be as close as a good tech. They won't be as bad as a bad tech either. So we are now stuck with mediocrity.
With a sub standard mechanism we generate an error laden, jittery data stream for the error corrector / concealer to fix. Don't even start talking about good D/A's if you intend to send them garbage. The digital out is flawed enough, and you expect music? On top of this, some people seem be concerned with cable quality. This only matters if we are going to cause more problems to the signal. Only a really cheap (defective) or defective cable will sound different - due to yet more digital errors.
To summarize: If you believe you can use an inexpensive transport, do not waste money on a good D/A. May as well stick to 12 bit models. A good audio filter is really what is needed.
-Chris
As I said ...
I learned CD service at the start and have serviced them continuously. The good, bad and completely worthless. The current Philips mechs are worthless.
If you pay for "it", you may get what you want, if you don't, you will not for sure. There is no way a cheap unit will work properly at a higher standard. CD transports have been reduced in quality and price. They have always been rip offs, but now I don't know if good transports are even made any more.
The problem is this (aside from the thing being repairable and lasting), to get a clear, noise free and stable RF pattern you need a well designed and adjustable transport. The first thing to do the align the head mechanically. You can not do that now. Secondly you need to be able to align the servos. The newer active servo's (self aligning) will never be as close as a good tech. They won't be as bad as a bad tech either. So we are now stuck with mediocrity.
With a sub standard mechanism we generate an error laden, jittery data stream for the error corrector / concealer to fix. Don't even start talking about good D/A's if you intend to send them garbage. The digital out is flawed enough, and you expect music? On top of this, some people seem be concerned with cable quality. This only matters if we are going to cause more problems to the signal. Only a really cheap (defective) or defective cable will sound different - due to yet more digital errors.
To summarize: If you believe you can use an inexpensive transport, do not waste money on a good D/A. May as well stick to 12 bit models. A good audio filter is really what is needed.
-Chris
I'd try Naim, Sugden and Linn. I've never heard Linn players I've heard that they are very close to vinyl.
The first Plextor CD burner I bought cost $200-250 and is about 50 pct heavier than the current ones, including Plextor's own. But you still get five times as much for the money when you buy a CD burner today. In the meantime high-end audio has only gotten more expensive. High-end means high-price.
So while I do not doubt that the quality is down for CD burners, you still get a lot of value for the money. If you crack open CD burner and transforms it to a top-loaded drive, it's as good as 90 pct of all high-price CDMs out there. A CD burner burns at 52x without errors! If you want noticeable better you need to get something like the drives found in the Teac Esoteric CDPs and then €1000 won't take you far.
As I see it, rmihai isn't likely to find a new CDP for €1000 that will improve on what he already has. Getting a second-hand CDP is an option. Other than that I can only see DIY as an option. Even a minimalist DAC is a big job, so I realize that my proposal isn't for everybody. But I just can't see what purpose there is getting a ninth CDP that won't deliver anything the eight first didn't.
So while I do not doubt that the quality is down for CD burners, you still get a lot of value for the money. If you crack open CD burner and transforms it to a top-loaded drive, it's as good as 90 pct of all high-price CDMs out there. A CD burner burns at 52x without errors! If you want noticeable better you need to get something like the drives found in the Teac Esoteric CDPs and then €1000 won't take you far.
As I see it, rmihai isn't likely to find a new CDP for €1000 that will improve on what he already has. Getting a second-hand CDP is an option. Other than that I can only see DIY as an option. Even a minimalist DAC is a big job, so I realize that my proposal isn't for everybody. But I just can't see what purpose there is getting a ninth CDP that won't deliver anything the eight first didn't.
Hi phn,
What you say is true for data drives where the mech. can read and re-read the data. Not true at all for audio drives as they read in one linear pass, no going back to retry. The data buffer in a CD is not large enough either.
A CD drive must present the clocked data to the buffer and error corrector within certain timing limits. This data is required to be as error free as possible. Any noise on the RF pattern will generate additional errors. Same for timing problems.
BTW, your 52X write is anything but error free. Even a stamped CD has a BLock Error Rate (BLER) as do all digital data storage devices. These are normally correctable. That's different from error free.
CD data and CD audio are as different a process as can be. There is no way to equate these things. CD manufacturers of course love any reason to give us lower quality items. They got you! 😉
-Chris
What you say is true for data drives where the mech. can read and re-read the data. Not true at all for audio drives as they read in one linear pass, no going back to retry. The data buffer in a CD is not large enough either.
A CD drive must present the clocked data to the buffer and error corrector within certain timing limits. This data is required to be as error free as possible. Any noise on the RF pattern will generate additional errors. Same for timing problems.
BTW, your 52X write is anything but error free. Even a stamped CD has a BLock Error Rate (BLER) as do all digital data storage devices. These are normally correctable. That's different from error free.
CD data and CD audio are as different a process as can be. There is no way to equate these things. CD manufacturers of course love any reason to give us lower quality items. They got you! 😉
-Chris
Chris,
Thanks for you very rational additions in post 14. Do you have any experience with the CD-Pro2M that you could pass on to those of us who might be considering it?
Thanks,
Craig
Thanks for you very rational additions in post 14. Do you have any experience with the CD-Pro2M that you could pass on to those of us who might be considering it?
Thanks,
Craig
Hi Craig,
I can't give any specific advice unless I happen to have that specific model on the bench. Some brands can use a good transport, but still have other issues that make them unattractive.
I would recommend that you make sure the manufacturer extends service for quite a long time (not warranty, serviceability). That would tend to exclude all Philips transports as Philips themselves do not support product much out of warranty.
To be honest, I am not clear what a good current choice would be. Sony has historically had good parts support. That means all Sony based transports. A manufacturer can only support the product as well as OEM support is extended. See the issue?
I guess I will have to investigate this a bit as my own products are getting long in the tooth. The best units I've owned were NEC OEM and Sony OEM transports. I have not been impressed with the Philips transports (any).
-Chris
I can't give any specific advice unless I happen to have that specific model on the bench. Some brands can use a good transport, but still have other issues that make them unattractive.
I would recommend that you make sure the manufacturer extends service for quite a long time (not warranty, serviceability). That would tend to exclude all Philips transports as Philips themselves do not support product much out of warranty.
To be honest, I am not clear what a good current choice would be. Sony has historically had good parts support. That means all Sony based transports. A manufacturer can only support the product as well as OEM support is extended. See the issue?
I guess I will have to investigate this a bit as my own products are getting long in the tooth. The best units I've owned were NEC OEM and Sony OEM transports. I have not been impressed with the Philips transports (any).
-Chris
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