The JBL studio monitors of that ilk had a charm of their own. I loved mine, as soon as took them out of the studio...... and used them on movies. Dialog clarity
Which brings me to one point not addressed here. PWK was right when he said we live in the midrange. Stretching drivers to cover midrange for economy is a bad idea. There is a reason that the Klipsch Heritage line is still with us regardless of midrange driver faults.(faults which can to an extent be addressed with a strip of felt at the mouth the old 70s way) Or maybe better a different shaped horn ala EGs OB + foam, a newer way. At any rate midrange neglect is one area that could be responsible for fatigue.
Which brings me to one point not addressed here. PWK was right when he said we live in the midrange. Stretching drivers to cover midrange for economy is a bad idea. There is a reason that the Klipsch Heritage line is still with us regardless of midrange driver faults.(faults which can to an extent be addressed with a strip of felt at the mouth the old 70s way) Or maybe better a different shaped horn ala EGs OB + foam, a newer way. At any rate midrange neglect is one area that could be responsible for fatigue.
Last edited:
Don't jump to conclusions about what the precise situation was when something occurred. Like most people on this forum I've got bits and pieces from the history of my activities, including dozens of speakers. Some of these are of quite a decent standard, though not at the serious 'audiophile' level.
The speakers used back then were 2nd hand, boring Brit bookshelf boxes, the sort of stuff they made in container ship quantities. And, yes, with those 'diabolical' dome tweeters, cheap plastic efforts. These were able to do the AC/DC thing nicely - and, also do the perfect 'disappearing' trick ... blindfold on - now, where is the tweeter, find the tweeter ....
Speaking of cone tweeters, another pair that have been playing a lot over the years are a pair of classic Technics Linear Phase 2 ways, from the late 70's. What will scare the bejeezus out of some here is that at one stage I had one of those doing the left channel, and the Brit bookshelf doing the right. The sensitivities were a close enough match, and it worked - still had imaging, soundstage, all was in order. People would listen - I had the mate sitting, dead as a doornail, to visually look 'correct' - and they didn't pick it ...
I keep coming back to this video as one of the best online demonstrations of how, subjectively, a system should work: Manfrotto FIG RIG 595B test video - REY AUDIO RM-7V in KENRICK SOUND showroom - YouTube ...
I spent long enough crossing the desert and now, you know, 20/20 hindsight and all it was the major things I was ignoring. Major, that is as far as the results have demonstrated. My default response to those issues before this was more like - this can't be all that helpful and it looks like quite an effort to go to to find out.
I used to look for subtleties and I guess I used to think I'd already covered all the major stuff. I'm talking things like the precision of inter-driver phase. Although ironically I'd probably pay more attention to this phase than I used to, it's in different ways and the big difference is that when I'm happy with it I can forget about it and get a good night's sleep.
I disagree with a lot of PWK, but not this. 700 - 7000 Hz is where we live. For speech it is ore like 300 - 3000, but music is a little higher. Greisinger makes a very good case about why this is.
I come from a somewhat different angle from many - in that I want to enjoy "poor" recordings, because often they are the most satisfying to listen to. A 'perfect' loudspeaker, in a 'perfect' room, will not solve the problem of audible abberations earlier in the chain making these sorts of recordings unlistenable to ... the "desert" will remain, even though the beautifully green oasis created will be wonderful in of itself ...
Last edited:
Your speakers look to me like you agree with him a great, great, deal.
I suppose PWK put a tremendous store in ultimate efficiency. Perhaps that is why they do double duty as PA speakers to this day. Regarding PA speakers, I always thought that it was a shame that the dedicated midrange horn was dropped and wondered if it was actually for reasons of economy.Seems to me that even given the complexity of a 3 way crossover that midrange horn is still a good idea, well at least in a PA. which theoretically as we know, should have the same goals. I suppose with modern drivers a dedicated midrange in 15" or 12" system is no longer needed.
I suppose PWK put a tremendous store in ultimate efficiency. Perhaps that is why they do double duty as PA speakers to this day. Regarding PA speakers, I always thought that it was a shame that the dedicated midrange horn was dropped and wondered if it was actually for reasons of economy.Seems to me that even given the complexity of a 3 way crossover that midrange horn is still a good idea, well at least in a PA. which theoretically as we know, should have the same goals. I suppose with modern drivers a dedicated midrange in 15" or 12" system is no longer needed.
Last edited:
I built a system a long time ago that sounded like crap. I would have posted here if we would have had the web, but instead I'm doing it now. Here ya go:
They sounded like crap.
Hope that's Ok.
Sorry I don't have the measurements, But I do feel the same need to say they sounded like crap.
Quoting myself
"I suppose PWK put a tremendous store in ultimate efficiency. Perhaps that is why they do double duty as PA speakers to this day. Regarding PA speakers, I always thought that it was a shame that the dedicated midrange horn was dropped and wondered if it was actually for reasons of economy.Seems to me that even given the complexity of a 3 way crossover that midrange horn is still a good idea, well at least in a PA. which theoretically as we know, should have the same goals. I suppose with modern drivers a dedicated midrange in 15" or 12" system is no longer needed."
Well.... I meant with modern drivers *and* radically optimally designed new new relatively straight sided horns of course! I'm slow sometimes. Cones OBs tractrix? I forget (-: I think the "His Masters Voice" Logo should be used again too.
"I suppose PWK put a tremendous store in ultimate efficiency. Perhaps that is why they do double duty as PA speakers to this day. Regarding PA speakers, I always thought that it was a shame that the dedicated midrange horn was dropped and wondered if it was actually for reasons of economy.Seems to me that even given the complexity of a 3 way crossover that midrange horn is still a good idea, well at least in a PA. which theoretically as we know, should have the same goals. I suppose with modern drivers a dedicated midrange in 15" or 12" system is no longer needed."
Well.... I meant with modern drivers *and* radically optimally designed new new relatively straight sided horns of course! I'm slow sometimes. Cones OBs tractrix? I forget (-: I think the "His Masters Voice" Logo should be used again too.
Last edited:
New Speaker designs:
All kidding aside.
There is going to be a winner in this area of real speakers.
It's going to be whoever fills the gaping hole left for a truly standard mastering reference.
Not speaking of my small operation but for the multiplicity of studios out there both big and small who if you get right down to it are still guessing. Obviously the Dunlavy's B&Ws are used a lot and damn near became a standard, but they too are flawed as are all speakers. I'm pointing out that *there is a hole*, and whoever fills that hole is going to win, big time. Those guys can't play around.
All kidding aside.
There is going to be a winner in this area of real speakers.
It's going to be whoever fills the gaping hole left for a truly standard mastering reference.
Not speaking of my small operation but for the multiplicity of studios out there both big and small who if you get right down to it are still guessing. Obviously the Dunlavy's B&Ws are used a lot and damn near became a standard, but they too are flawed as are all speakers. I'm pointing out that *there is a hole*, and whoever fills that hole is going to win, big time. Those guys can't play around.
So, pete(?), what are the flaws, what needs to be done right that isn't happenin' at the moment?
I might be interested ... 😉, 😀
I might be interested ... 😉, 😀
YES there indeed is... it's called the clearance isle! 😀
Ehhh, they could have mastered the basics from what we learned back in the 80's, why help them now? 😉
The same flaws we know. I think Earl Geddes is on the right track. I think maybe that a 3 way is inevitable though. I think it has to be closed box. I think that I don't know enough to even say half the things I've said, but I do know the market and I do know the crowd.
One thing. I'm seeing subwoofers crossed too high. They need to really be subwoofers for this. I'm seeing way too small speakers starting to be used for mastering. I can't see that being a good idea.
Another thing. I know that the speakers actually can't be as dynamic as I would like them to be. In a perverse sort of way it is the mediocrity that we are counting on. This very fact is why I think we have a hole to fill. There is far too much diversity among even the speakers that have sort of became standards here. All of my life ice heard "reference standard" People are buying speakers that are out of production. Funny when there are so many "references"
Another thing. I know that the speakers actually can't be as dynamic as I would like them to be. In a perverse sort of way it is the mediocrity that we are counting on. This very fact is why I think we have a hole to fill. There is far too much diversity among even the speakers that have sort of became standards here. All of my life ice heard "reference standard" People are buying speakers that are out of production. Funny when there are so many "references"
I have seen, even lately, some truly ignorant designs that would *never pass muster* being used and reviewed by well known engineers in well known studios.Guys that should read the books, grasped the science. This should not happen, but EGOS make it happen. I understand the reluctance to embrace the pro audio community (leaving the idiots in some of the hifi mags aside for now) But here is the deal. Get the right speakers in the hands of the right group of these guys and the rest *will* follow. Because they have to. When I was doing mostly recording I too playrd follow the leader and bought a set of ns10s, god awful speakers even for mere mixing as opposed to mastering but you know what? Even then, when I knew even less than the tiny gnat assed miniscule bit I know now, I new damn well that the emperor had no clothes. These guys still play follow the leader. Here is the real deal though: Most lot of the great MEs really are great! Get those speakers in their hands, but make damn sure you pick the right guys. I know for a fact that it's not about dollars, it's about real credibility. Those guys are the real deal, the final arbiters *not the hifi mags, not the academics* it is they and they alone that truly decide what we hear, and they don't really have that much to chose from.At least in their minds they do not. Back to fatigue, yeah this is where it starts.
Last edited:
I built a set of 15" + WG speakers and found them to be competent on their own. Furthermore I didn't see it appropriate to add another range somewhere, although when paired with a multi-sub setup it could be argued as a three way system.
I'd say that it could be easier to get what you want with a three way...also a little harder. I currently cross at 200/1k FWIW.
I am guessing that we do not even dare a crossover anywhere near the middle. Think of it as a middle out thing. We could even view it as a mix from the middle out in a way.The middle must be one driver. On subs, I am thinking that these speakers really need to not need subs, but if used at all below 40. Below 40 is MORE than relevant now. Hip Hop has, as it would be put, "Flipped The Script"