I agree with Alspe in the importance of the right bass level and extension. I had great sound until I moved house. Same system, lousy, fatiguing sound. Lots of bass traps and a bass equilazer fixed the problem. Given the circumstances, I knew somehow the room´s effect on the bass was the culprit. Otherwise I might have put it down to the system as a whole and started from scratch.
What fascinates me is how hard it is to pinpoint the bass as the offender. Everything else just sounds wrong and it really seems as if the problem is higher up the range.
What fascinates me is how hard it is to pinpoint the bass as the offender. Everything else just sounds wrong and it really seems as if the problem is higher up the range.
I'd agree that it's in the extremities of the frequency range.
If the bass is wrong, the rest of it follows.
The worst offender for me is the treble. At school, they have these amplifiers, which use a pair of 3,300 uF caps for the power supply. They try to deliver 50W/channel to a pair of inefficient bookshelf speakers. The teacher stands at the front, slowly turning them up, and it all goes horribly wrong very quickly.
There's far too much sibilance, there's a serious amount of harmonics. Sometimes, I get up and mess with the treble controls (which they also mess with, along with the bass control, and (worst of all) the balance control), so the speakers don't rip your ears off.
In conclusion - too much treble is the near-instant way of telling. Bass takes a while longer, but it's still there and it still makes everything else sound wrong.
If the bass is wrong, the rest of it follows.
The worst offender for me is the treble. At school, they have these amplifiers, which use a pair of 3,300 uF caps for the power supply. They try to deliver 50W/channel to a pair of inefficient bookshelf speakers. The teacher stands at the front, slowly turning them up, and it all goes horribly wrong very quickly.
There's far too much sibilance, there's a serious amount of harmonics. Sometimes, I get up and mess with the treble controls (which they also mess with, along with the bass control, and (worst of all) the balance control), so the speakers don't rip your ears off.
In conclusion - too much treble is the near-instant way of telling. Bass takes a while longer, but it's still there and it still makes everything else sound wrong.
I suspect the experience of listening fatigue is largely personal, with large perceptual differences between individuals - and large differences arising from momentary brain state, as well.
That said, when I attend a hifi show like the RMAF, most of the rooms drive me out in a matter of seconds. Staying in these "no-go" rooms for several minutes (to meet someone, ask questions from the vendor, etc.) causes intense irritation and annoyance - and I know it's not me, since as soon as I leave and find solace in the hallway, the annoyance immediately disappears.
I think part of the irritation is knowing what faults are causing the problem - like driving a friend's car that has a bad transmission, pulls to one side or has bad brakes, it's hard to overlook or ignore a gross defect. The thing is, depending on our design background, we notice different defects in the sound. If you haven't had much design experience, it'll just sound "wrong" without knowing why. The more you know, the more you notice problems, since you've had to solve them yourself in the process of designing many speakers. The more speakers you design, the more aware you become that even your best efforts have many flaws remaining, and that's just how it is with devices as imperfect as loudspeakers.
I notice upper-mid and HF (1 to 8 kHz) breakup in the drivers, which is associated not just with a bad choice of drivers, but inept crossover design as well. This problem has actually gotten worse in the high-end industry, and is common even in $100,000 speaker systems, as well as $10,000 and $1,000 speakers. If anything, the $1,000 speakers are maybe a bit better in terms of obvious and gross design defects.
The vendors usually try to conceal these defects by choosing minimalist program material that doesn't stimulate the mid and HF resonances too strongly. If you play dense material, like choral pieces, where there's an obvious natural reference (we all know what voices should sound like, we hear them every day), then the fault becomes obvious, and the vendor usually kicks you out of the room before any other customers hear it as well.
It is true that very transparent speakers begin to reveal defects in the electronics (low-quality DAC conversion, 30-year-old opamps, Class AB artifacts. etc.), but this takes a pretty good speaker that also has low subjective levels of coloration - not all that common at hifi shows - maybe one room in twenty, at a good show. At a bad show, you might not hear anything good.
That said, when I attend a hifi show like the RMAF, most of the rooms drive me out in a matter of seconds. Staying in these "no-go" rooms for several minutes (to meet someone, ask questions from the vendor, etc.) causes intense irritation and annoyance - and I know it's not me, since as soon as I leave and find solace in the hallway, the annoyance immediately disappears.
I think part of the irritation is knowing what faults are causing the problem - like driving a friend's car that has a bad transmission, pulls to one side or has bad brakes, it's hard to overlook or ignore a gross defect. The thing is, depending on our design background, we notice different defects in the sound. If you haven't had much design experience, it'll just sound "wrong" without knowing why. The more you know, the more you notice problems, since you've had to solve them yourself in the process of designing many speakers. The more speakers you design, the more aware you become that even your best efforts have many flaws remaining, and that's just how it is with devices as imperfect as loudspeakers.
I notice upper-mid and HF (1 to 8 kHz) breakup in the drivers, which is associated not just with a bad choice of drivers, but inept crossover design as well. This problem has actually gotten worse in the high-end industry, and is common even in $100,000 speaker systems, as well as $10,000 and $1,000 speakers. If anything, the $1,000 speakers are maybe a bit better in terms of obvious and gross design defects.
The vendors usually try to conceal these defects by choosing minimalist program material that doesn't stimulate the mid and HF resonances too strongly. If you play dense material, like choral pieces, where there's an obvious natural reference (we all know what voices should sound like, we hear them every day), then the fault becomes obvious, and the vendor usually kicks you out of the room before any other customers hear it as well.
It is true that very transparent speakers begin to reveal defects in the electronics (low-quality DAC conversion, 30-year-old opamps, Class AB artifacts. etc.), but this takes a pretty good speaker that also has low subjective levels of coloration - not all that common at hifi shows - maybe one room in twenty, at a good show. At a bad show, you might not hear anything good.
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HOLY crap you are like...me. Are you me? Everything you wrote is just awesome. But you spelled 'lose' wrong.😛
Its easier to sell a speaker when you have a pretty box with fancy drivers. What is inside, nobody can see. Its very tempting for manufacturers to use less crossover components to make more money.
Its also easier to sell a colored speaker. With minimalist design, the buyer is already sold on the idea that its superior. First order, no phase problems.
Use the cone breakup of the mid-woofer to give the illusion of transparency. Play some acoustic guitar tracks in demo and tell the customer to listen to how realistic the twang of the strings sounds.
This thread is great. I'll read the rest of the pages later.
Yesterday I set up my speakers for an A/B test. One with a stock Audio Nirvana driver and one modified AN driver. I popped in the absolutely worst CD ever made for paper fullrange drivers: Smashing Pumpkins / Siamese Dream. Nothing in my experience sounds worse with untreated paper drivers; especially at volume. So I cRRranked those babies up. Now I never play this album because my beloved fullrange drivers turn this guitar and vocals into painful mush.
But I was focusing hard on trying to see if speaker A sounded better or worse than speaker B.
Funny thing is I had a good time. Yes, the distortions/breakups were there, but they didn't seem to matter. What mattered, apparently, was that my mind was not clinically focused (as it always seems to be) on the usual aberrations, but focused on something else. This was effective at negating listener fatigue.
Even more effective is mood. If you're in high spirits, the speakers sound fantastic. If you're ill or depressed or stressed or bored etc, they won't sound good.
So it's your brain that's the biggest factor in fatigue. It's got my vote. All of the other things matter, but not as seriously.
Yesterday I set up my speakers for an A/B test. One with a stock Audio Nirvana driver and one modified AN driver. I popped in the absolutely worst CD ever made for paper fullrange drivers: Smashing Pumpkins / Siamese Dream. Nothing in my experience sounds worse with untreated paper drivers; especially at volume. So I cRRranked those babies up. Now I never play this album because my beloved fullrange drivers turn this guitar and vocals into painful mush.
But I was focusing hard on trying to see if speaker A sounded better or worse than speaker B.
Funny thing is I had a good time. Yes, the distortions/breakups were there, but they didn't seem to matter. What mattered, apparently, was that my mind was not clinically focused (as it always seems to be) on the usual aberrations, but focused on something else. This was effective at negating listener fatigue.
Even more effective is mood. If you're in high spirits, the speakers sound fantastic. If you're ill or depressed or stressed or bored etc, they won't sound good.
So it's your brain that's the biggest factor in fatigue. It's got my vote. All of the other things matter, but not as seriously.
I tried using DSP to cancel crosstalk and found it unnatural and tiring.
I found the physical barrier works very well, and delivers the benefits that you have mentioned.
I believe the easiest way to make this look decent is to use waveguides to control the directivity. If anything, it should sound superior than the use of a physical barrier.
Stay tuned, I'll be posting results in the next few weeks.
A few thoughts
Sorry I missed your earlier question to me about barriers etc. My guess is that the DSP (RACE) route is highly room dependent. In my relatively live room it did not work due to the reflected sound being very unbalanced. Perhaps in a relatively dead room and probably a larger room it could work much better. (To avoid the imbalance in off-axis response was the reason I went to OSD, which does not have such strong peaks and nulls off-axis.) It would really need a much more in depth discussion with someone like Glasgal to pin this down.
I only ever tried a barrier temporarily to get a feel for how one would perform.
A key question is how much attenuation of the cross-signal (left speaker - right ear, etc.) is needed. From some earlier tests with RACE like algorithms (and an old hardware processor I made years ago) I'd guess/suggest 10 dB gives a good result. Possibly as little as 6 dB works (in addition to the HRTF difference). It would be great if someone can point to a more solid reference for the minimum requirement.
Even with 6dB I don't see how you can get that difference between left and right ears using waveguides at a normal listening distance (i.e. 2m or more with something like Summas). I await your solution with interest.
Ken
Sorry I missed your earlier question to me about barriers etc. My guess is that the DSP (RACE) route is highly room dependent. In my relatively live room it did not work due to the reflected sound being very unbalanced. Perhaps in a relatively dead room and probably a larger room it could work much better. (To avoid the imbalance in off-axis response was the reason I went to OSD, which does not have such strong peaks and nulls off-axis.) It would really need a much more in depth discussion with someone like Glasgal to pin this down.
I only ever tried a barrier temporarily to get a feel for how one would perform.
A key question is how much attenuation of the cross-signal (left speaker - right ear, etc.) is needed. From some earlier tests with RACE like algorithms (and an old hardware processor I made years ago) I'd guess/suggest 10 dB gives a good result. Possibly as little as 6 dB works (in addition to the HRTF difference). It would be great if someone can point to a more solid reference for the minimum requirement.
Even with 6dB I don't see how you can get that difference between left and right ears using waveguides at a normal listening distance (i.e. 2m or more with something like Summas). I await your solution with interest.
Ken
Listening fatigue is caused by boring program material.
It's a form of ennui, from which normally only the most privileged and doltish suffer and is otherwise known as 'not knowing when to change the record' which is akin to 'too stupid to come in out of the rain'.
The other day my wife & I went to see Avatar in 3D. Brilliant 3D. And brilliant CGI. But about 2/3 of the way through, I was already feeling the onset of 'viewing fatigue' and wishing I was out of the movie theatre and on my way home.
This was because of the boring and 1 dimensional plot and characterisation. In this case, Marshall, the medium was not message enough.
Listening fatigue? Why not get a dog and spend a bit more time out walking in the fresh air. Then maybe your ears won't get so tired.
w
It's a form of ennui, from which normally only the most privileged and doltish suffer and is otherwise known as 'not knowing when to change the record' which is akin to 'too stupid to come in out of the rain'.
The other day my wife & I went to see Avatar in 3D. Brilliant 3D. And brilliant CGI. But about 2/3 of the way through, I was already feeling the onset of 'viewing fatigue' and wishing I was out of the movie theatre and on my way home.
This was because of the boring and 1 dimensional plot and characterisation. In this case, Marshall, the medium was not message enough.
Listening fatigue? Why not get a dog and spend a bit more time out walking in the fresh air. Then maybe your ears won't get so tired.
w
My system always sounded too bright for me, i had 2 speaker set (JBL and EPOs) with titanium dome tweeters, i replaced the 2 tweeters on the JBL by silkdomes . Later i haded a active JBL Subwoofer that gave me that low bass extension i never had before.The last change i made was adding a tube preamplifier . The sound became " fatter " , bass is more powerfull , the highs are more plesant . I´m quite pleased , i find my system to sound neutral , not leaning to bright or bass. Still i need my equalizer to tame the mids , i know it´s not audiophile to have a equalizer , but i cant live without mine...
One time after having hiked up the side of a mountain with a heavy backpack on, it started raining. The cool rain felt wonderful, I was delighted to just sit in the rain and relax. But, some jerks insisted I must have hypothermia and I wasn't thinking clearly. No matter how I insisted that I felt fine, and how much I really wanted to enjoy the rain, they just wouldn't leave me be. I used to play in the rain when I was a kid. I've never had hypothermia.
Care to guess how many decades it's been since I've been able to sit down and enjoy listening to music on any sort of regular basis?
It's the sound systems I'm talking about, not the music. Though, I will admit, a lot of modern (since the 1990's) music lacks much appeal to me.
If I play an old album (or CD) that I still love, but haven't heard for a long time, I don't enjoy it, not for long anyway. Maybe one song, rarely, I can listen to a whole CD.
An ex-coworker of mine said it was the best movie he's ever seen. I sometimes think that maybe he's not super smart...
I'm allergic to dogs 🙁 I also don't want the responsibility. I like to travel. I don't like dog poop. I do like dogs though, I'd be happy if I wasn't allergic to dogs and I could borrow one once in a while to come visit my family.
Do you have something against ALL music? I think music is a great and wonderful thing. I miss it very much.
I read this with interest as though the majority of my listening is to non vocal electronic music .. I've gravitated towards using a Dead Can Dance acapella track as my main "quick test" when I make tweaks to my system.. As lovely as some of the electronic music sounds it's hard to have a reference point to what that particular synth patch + combo of effects processing was "supposed" to sound like...