apassgear said:
I love this!
Have you ever left a concert or theatre and just couldn't hear because you'd forgotton. . . a bit of the programme or ticket stuffed into your ear?
After miles and miles of ground wires from your power station, transformers, splitters, spreaders, after your electrician run wiring throughout your house: that last 3 ft makes and audible difference?
Did you ever even bother looking in to the gage of your in wall wiring?
1)Politicians, promising better economy, end of oppression, more democracy and less taxes cause listening fatigue. Every year, the economy gets worse, more people die in the war and we loose more freedoms.
2)Talk show host, senseless reading of jocks, written for them by corporate talentless writers, about politicians causes listening fatigue.
3) Reports of the celebrity lives causes listening fatigue.
Hell, I can listen to music for a long time!
Did you ever even bother looking in to the gage of your in wall wiring?
1)Politicians, promising better economy, end of oppression, more democracy and less taxes cause listening fatigue. Every year, the economy gets worse, more people die in the war and we loose more freedoms.
2)Talk show host, senseless reading of jocks, written for them by corporate talentless writers, about politicians causes listening fatigue.
3) Reports of the celebrity lives causes listening fatigue.
Hell, I can listen to music for a long time!
Although a power cord is the least likely spot for an improvment, this one http://www.theaudiophileworkshop.com.au/diypowercable.html has an obvious means for function of reducing hum. The technique is more often seen on transmitters, and so its rather unusual on home audio equipment.
R-Carpenter said:
Good power cables are able to reduce EMI already in the mains supply that have a negative effect on any electronic circuit. Yes EMI can be filtered but the filter itself can also have a negative effect on the sound quality of an amplifier.
Good cable can make a worthwhile improvement, there is however a lot of "good" cable on the market that have little or no influence on sound quality.
On topic with loudspeakers. . .
I'd like to propose that, on loudspeakers, crossover points between 2k and 4k (see above chart) are probable cause for listening fatigue, if that listening fatigue comes from a speaker.
Although, that's two different topics at once. The one I'd like to discuss is dispersion matching.
For instance, compare a dome tweeter crossed to midbass at 3k. . . to a dome tweeter crossed to a dome midrange at 3k.
The crossover is at 3k either way, in my example, but you can choose to have upper harmonics sprayed all over the walls, unaccompanied, or you could choose dispersion matching.
I'll leave the rest for the experts to discuss, and see what solutions are presented. Thanks guys!
I'd like to propose that, on loudspeakers, crossover points between 2k and 4k (see above chart) are probable cause for listening fatigue, if that listening fatigue comes from a speaker.
Although, that's two different topics at once. The one I'd like to discuss is dispersion matching.
For instance, compare a dome tweeter crossed to midbass at 3k. . . to a dome tweeter crossed to a dome midrange at 3k.
The crossover is at 3k either way, in my example, but you can choose to have upper harmonics sprayed all over the walls, unaccompanied, or you could choose dispersion matching.
I'll leave the rest for the experts to discuss, and see what solutions are presented. Thanks guys!
music fatigue
I first had problems with cd and then listening to more and more hi fi. Aswell as fatigue I suffer hangover headaches for at least a day after listening to music, whether vinyl. cd. or live music.
I first had problems with cd and then listening to more and more hi fi. Aswell as fatigue I suffer hangover headaches for at least a day after listening to music, whether vinyl. cd. or live music.
Interesting thread, I read it all as I was trying to avoid doing some work 😱 😀
Earlier in the thread someone mentioned older people sometimes being more sensitive to some aspects. I showed my dad (over 60) and incomplete speaker with the B3N metal cone driver and he noticed a tiny sound in a track we both knew quite well, which I hadn't noticed. When he pointed it out I heard it there clearly, but probably wouldn't have noticed it myself. It was a sort of vinyl crackle sound added for effect btw, mabye he was more sensitive to this from listening to vinyl when he was younger!
With compression, it's got downright silly on a lot of modern recordings. A housemate was listening to a pop music TV channel earlier and two tracks in a row had terrible instances of over compression. I thought it might be broadcast compression but I doubt it was, the TV doesn't normally do this much damage to music! This one song had a nearly solo voice at the intro which was quite clear, then the rest came in and the voice turned into nothing but a whisper comparitively, drowned in a sea of the backing. Absolutely no dynamics. Didn't bother to mention it though, she seemed to be enjoying it 😀 😱
Earlier in the thread someone mentioned older people sometimes being more sensitive to some aspects. I showed my dad (over 60) and incomplete speaker with the B3N metal cone driver and he noticed a tiny sound in a track we both knew quite well, which I hadn't noticed. When he pointed it out I heard it there clearly, but probably wouldn't have noticed it myself. It was a sort of vinyl crackle sound added for effect btw, mabye he was more sensitive to this from listening to vinyl when he was younger!
With compression, it's got downright silly on a lot of modern recordings. A housemate was listening to a pop music TV channel earlier and two tracks in a row had terrible instances of over compression. I thought it might be broadcast compression but I doubt it was, the TV doesn't normally do this much damage to music! This one song had a nearly solo voice at the intro which was quite clear, then the rest came in and the voice turned into nothing but a whisper comparitively, drowned in a sea of the backing. Absolutely no dynamics. Didn't bother to mention it though, she seemed to be enjoying it 😀 😱
I missed the middle of this thread, good stuff there - I just caught up.
From back in post #85
Funny. Had a very similar thing happen 2 days ago. Was testing a new DAC I'd built. Very much liked the sound of it, smooth with little fatique. Went off to eat dinner, do a few things and came back about 1 1/2 hours later. Sounded awful!
Same system, same room, same CD - I had not even turned it off. What was the difference? Just me, I suppose.....
From back in post #85
gedlee said:
Funny. Had a very similar thing happen 2 days ago. Was testing a new DAC I'd built. Very much liked the sound of it, smooth with little fatique. Went off to eat dinner, do a few things and came back about 1 1/2 hours later. Sounded awful!
Same system, same room, same CD - I had not even turned it off. What was the difference? Just me, I suppose.....
panomaniac said:
Don't dicard the idea of new components as they initially age. This was vividly brought home by a set of Fonkens that Bud had just added an additional stealth ring too, over a period of a couple hours as the spots cured the system went from good to aweful and back again... the next day it sounded wonderful.
dave
For me many factors contribute to listening fatigue. One of the main ones is CD Red Book quality audio which has less low level information than all but the worst analog recordings, if that. Meaning there is just less involvement possible with the music, so the recording flaws stand out more. I was semi-enthusiastic about SACD and DVD Audio for a while wrt to resolving the low level resolution and brick wall cutoff problems with Red Book, but it appears they are going by the wayside.
Fancy compression schemes are a close second on my list. I understand the competitive marketing pressures to create the 'loudest' possible recordings which often result in releases having about a 2 db dynamic range. That is often death to good SQ and creates listening fatigue.
Poor micing and post processing techniques are often another major contributor to listening fatigue. Fro instance, it's not very easy to make a convincing simulacrum of a real space musical performance using multitrack techniques.
I also use a vacuum tube based sonic hologram processor I built which performs similar to the Carver units. This aids materially in creating an illusion of soundstage depth and width which significantly increases my involvement with any decent recording and makes listening fatigue less likely. I am now working to add tick and pop reduction capability to this unit with reference to the classic Burwen design to recapture the greatest possible satisfaction from vinyl.
Finally, I use a tube amplifying chain with a maximum of six amplifying stages between the input and the speaker that I designed myself, including a DC coupled balanced triode OTL, a turntable system that is effectively isolated from even 100db ambient SPLs and high efficiency speaker systems (for now the Iron Lawbreakers) that can reproduce realistic SPLs with low distortion. All of these significantly minimize the likelihood of listening fatique with any reasonable quality recording. But note that this system does not cover up poor quality (digital) audio's deficiencies in any significant way.
Fancy compression schemes are a close second on my list. I understand the competitive marketing pressures to create the 'loudest' possible recordings which often result in releases having about a 2 db dynamic range. That is often death to good SQ and creates listening fatigue.
Poor micing and post processing techniques are often another major contributor to listening fatigue. Fro instance, it's not very easy to make a convincing simulacrum of a real space musical performance using multitrack techniques.
I also use a vacuum tube based sonic hologram processor I built which performs similar to the Carver units. This aids materially in creating an illusion of soundstage depth and width which significantly increases my involvement with any decent recording and makes listening fatigue less likely. I am now working to add tick and pop reduction capability to this unit with reference to the classic Burwen design to recapture the greatest possible satisfaction from vinyl.
Finally, I use a tube amplifying chain with a maximum of six amplifying stages between the input and the speaker that I designed myself, including a DC coupled balanced triode OTL, a turntable system that is effectively isolated from even 100db ambient SPLs and high efficiency speaker systems (for now the Iron Lawbreakers) that can reproduce realistic SPLs with low distortion. All of these significantly minimize the likelihood of listening fatique with any reasonable quality recording. But note that this system does not cover up poor quality (digital) audio's deficiencies in any significant way.
Each To Their Own...
But ear fatigue in my world has always been caused by monitoring or listening at too high a level. "Turn it down, Save An Ear(a)".
But ear fatigue in my world has always been caused by monitoring or listening at too high a level. "Turn it down, Save An Ear(a)".
hi.
long time audiophile/rock musician-gradually-losing-hearing-since-i-was-eighteen here. audiologists will tell you a lot of things. you may or may not hear them.
people can lose hearing even from low dB if they are exposed for long periods of time. telemarketers, for karmic example, are susceptible. hearing loss is a cumulative effect.
when you experience temporary hearing loss(ringing in the ears), it is a sign you are in danger of permanent hearing loss if you do not avoid the situation that lead to your temporary hearing loss.
CONSTANT NOISE is more damaging than PEAKS.
the first frequencies to get damaged are the mids. from around one to six, as i recall.
this is because the semicircular canal of the ear is setup such that the inner most cilia(the hair-like nerves that vibrate and detect sound in your ear) detect the extreme lows (because they need to be protected from the amplitude of high SPL low frequencies), and the cilia closest to the eardrum detect the mids and high mids (because, as a species, these are the most important frequencies to detect for our survival, a twig cracking, leaves rustling...). so, the frequencies that we are most sensitive to, are the ones that cause fatigue. a sizzling tweeter only hurts if it's spitting. a subwoofer only hurts if it's 'poking'.
i love this thread.
i agree that the mind playing 'sonic simulcra' is also an issue of fatigue, but i think that MOSTLY, it is an issue with the mid/high PEAKS.
too much compression is not an issue of the compressors are good. it is more the nature of the compression itself. you canmake an atom bomb sound like a violin with a really nice tube compressor.
the (bad) compression doesn't have to come from the recording, either, because speakers and amplifiers can have nasty quirks where they distort and compress/expand certain frequenices.
it is REPETITIVE peaks (presumably cause by overloading SOME component in the PLAYBACK signal chain(as the SOURCE has been ironed out by industry standards)) in the mids and highs that hurt. i have come home from ear-bleeding concerts and been able to turn on and enjoy music at a low volume when the listening system is good, but turn on an AM car radio and i want to stick ice picks in my ears to relieve the pain.
ps. nothing hurts like a tele trough a fender twin with the treble turned to ten. there ought to be a law.
long time audiophile/rock musician-gradually-losing-hearing-since-i-was-eighteen here. audiologists will tell you a lot of things. you may or may not hear them.
people can lose hearing even from low dB if they are exposed for long periods of time. telemarketers, for karmic example, are susceptible. hearing loss is a cumulative effect.
when you experience temporary hearing loss(ringing in the ears), it is a sign you are in danger of permanent hearing loss if you do not avoid the situation that lead to your temporary hearing loss.
CONSTANT NOISE is more damaging than PEAKS.
the first frequencies to get damaged are the mids. from around one to six, as i recall.
this is because the semicircular canal of the ear is setup such that the inner most cilia(the hair-like nerves that vibrate and detect sound in your ear) detect the extreme lows (because they need to be protected from the amplitude of high SPL low frequencies), and the cilia closest to the eardrum detect the mids and high mids (because, as a species, these are the most important frequencies to detect for our survival, a twig cracking, leaves rustling...). so, the frequencies that we are most sensitive to, are the ones that cause fatigue. a sizzling tweeter only hurts if it's spitting. a subwoofer only hurts if it's 'poking'.
i love this thread.
i agree that the mind playing 'sonic simulcra' is also an issue of fatigue, but i think that MOSTLY, it is an issue with the mid/high PEAKS.
too much compression is not an issue of the compressors are good. it is more the nature of the compression itself. you canmake an atom bomb sound like a violin with a really nice tube compressor.
the (bad) compression doesn't have to come from the recording, either, because speakers and amplifiers can have nasty quirks where they distort and compress/expand certain frequenices.
it is REPETITIVE peaks (presumably cause by overloading SOME component in the PLAYBACK signal chain(as the SOURCE has been ironed out by industry standards)) in the mids and highs that hurt. i have come home from ear-bleeding concerts and been able to turn on and enjoy music at a low volume when the listening system is good, but turn on an AM car radio and i want to stick ice picks in my ears to relieve the pain.
ps. nothing hurts like a tele trough a fender twin with the treble turned to ten. there ought to be a law.
i should clarify.
constant noise isn't really "more damaging" than peaks, it is total dB over time that is the issue.
like speaker, eardrums have a maximum extension, and if it's exceeded, something's gotta give (ripped memebrane,anyone? OUCH!). that would be hearing damage from impact. so, extreme peaks can instantly deafen, but constant noise will also do the job over time in a different (and more common in our noise-ridden world) manner.
short term exposure to high dB will cause the cilia to lay flat, effectively canceling the frequencies they are tuned to. they will, however, spring back up and begin fluttering again, given time and silence. extremely loud peaks can 'shock' the potassium out of the nerves, and if the damamgeis not 'fatal', the cilia can draw potassium back in over time.
contant noise will gradually drive the potassium out.
once again, this is just what an audiologist said, so i don't know if i heard him right.
how 'fatiguing' a speaker is, is a matter of how much noise (ie. compressed/distorted bandwidths in the mids and highs) the speaker is outputting. speakers which do not fatigue, probably have good headroom in those sensitive frequency ranges.
c'mon, someone, ....say something? i can't hear you!
constant noise isn't really "more damaging" than peaks, it is total dB over time that is the issue.
like speaker, eardrums have a maximum extension, and if it's exceeded, something's gotta give (ripped memebrane,anyone? OUCH!). that would be hearing damage from impact. so, extreme peaks can instantly deafen, but constant noise will also do the job over time in a different (and more common in our noise-ridden world) manner.
short term exposure to high dB will cause the cilia to lay flat, effectively canceling the frequencies they are tuned to. they will, however, spring back up and begin fluttering again, given time and silence. extremely loud peaks can 'shock' the potassium out of the nerves, and if the damamgeis not 'fatal', the cilia can draw potassium back in over time.
contant noise will gradually drive the potassium out.
once again, this is just what an audiologist said, so i don't know if i heard him right.
how 'fatiguing' a speaker is, is a matter of how much noise (ie. compressed/distorted bandwidths in the mids and highs) the speaker is outputting. speakers which do not fatigue, probably have good headroom in those sensitive frequency ranges.
c'mon, someone, ....say something? i can't hear you!
listening fatigue - a few reflections
Listening fatigue is the result of a mismatch between what you EXPECT to hear and what you DO hear. The brain tries to make up for the distortion and since this take lots of energy you get tired.
The distortion on the other hand is the result of bad amps, bad loudspeakers, bad recordings and bad cables. Also a bad listening room. And, I might add, a mind full of things that simply should not be there.
It is basically a combination of psychoacoustics and technology not meeting each other.
I would recommend to start with a good “brain wash”, meaning using hypnosis to release old traumas that always intervene. Second, start LISTENING to acoustical music, live concerts with classical music, especially Mozart and his piano concertos and symphonies. They literally recreate your hearing. This is not easy but if you want your hearing back, this is a good start. I’ve tried it myself.
I can listen for hours and hours on my setup without fatigue and I’m well beyond 60…
But again, I’ve designed my equipment from all my knowledge on psychoacoustics and based on a patent I hold plus deep insight into the design of CFB amps. Also, I select my recordings with utmost care.
Hope this can be of help.
Listening fatigue is the result of a mismatch between what you EXPECT to hear and what you DO hear. The brain tries to make up for the distortion and since this take lots of energy you get tired.
The distortion on the other hand is the result of bad amps, bad loudspeakers, bad recordings and bad cables. Also a bad listening room. And, I might add, a mind full of things that simply should not be there.
It is basically a combination of psychoacoustics and technology not meeting each other.
I would recommend to start with a good “brain wash”, meaning using hypnosis to release old traumas that always intervene. Second, start LISTENING to acoustical music, live concerts with classical music, especially Mozart and his piano concertos and symphonies. They literally recreate your hearing. This is not easy but if you want your hearing back, this is a good start. I’ve tried it myself.
I can listen for hours and hours on my setup without fatigue and I’m well beyond 60…
But again, I’ve designed my equipment from all my knowledge on psychoacoustics and based on a patent I hold plus deep insight into the design of CFB amps. Also, I select my recordings with utmost care.
Hope this can be of help.
Seem to be a lot of opinions on this one! Likely all valid.
The room plays a bigger part than most of us think. Being as I am rather "mobile" (I move house a lot) I get to hear a lot of different rooms. And I used to tour as a front of house sound tech - that really shows you how much the room influences the sound. A huge, huge influence.
On the really top notch systems I've heard - where everything is good - electronics, speakers and the room - bad recordings become a lot less annoying. In fact many become quite delightful as you stop worrying about the sound and just groove on the music.
Building a system like that is not fast, easy or cheap, tho....
The room plays a bigger part than most of us think. Being as I am rather "mobile" (I move house a lot) I get to hear a lot of different rooms. And I used to tour as a front of house sound tech - that really shows you how much the room influences the sound. A huge, huge influence.
On the really top notch systems I've heard - where everything is good - electronics, speakers and the room - bad recordings become a lot less annoying. In fact many become quite delightful as you stop worrying about the sound and just groove on the music.
Building a system like that is not fast, easy or cheap, tho....
phase_accurate said:
Definitely. After too many years of fast cars, fast music and loud women (hi pit pony!) I have aquired hearing impairment. I should also add flyback transformers to the list of guilty parties as I have a notch at that f.
I am now sensitive to "harshness" that the young'uns can't hear.
The key is to identify "harshness" . AB cross over distortion and cone break-up/resonses _seem_ to be the main ones for me - tho' AM detection of HF/VHF noise is also in the mix (ferrites are my friend in a RF-noisy environment)
At the other extreme _non_ fatigue is defined by falling asleep on the couch. 10W of JLH or SE 6s4A* plus Vifa 13W (ie Ariels, thanks Lynn!) does it for me.
* yup - waaaay less than 1W. But sweet.