I agee MR, but the best tweek I ever did was to put my spiked speakers onto paving slabs, that then rested on a carpet on a standard wooden floor.
One day when I'm feeling clever I'll actually try and work out all the coupling, isolation, mass loading and (para)psychoaccoustics involved!
One day when I'm feeling clever I'll actually try and work out all the coupling, isolation, mass loading and (para)psychoaccoustics involved!
MRehorst:
"due to raising the bottom of the speaker off the floor- instead of the weight of the speaker and the floor damping vibrations in the bottom panel of the speaker, by lifting it off the floor and supporting it at the corners"
Uhm, I never considered using speakers with no type of foot on the bottom, wheter it was a spike or rubber foot. But you do have a point, though as you also stated it is very questionalbe that this has an 'audilble' effect as a direct result of the additional surface area.
pinkmouse:
"but the best tweek I ever did was to put my spiked speakers onto paving slabs, that then rested on a carpet on a standard wooden floor"
A very effective decoupling method, that sounds like. The carpet provided a very compliant coupler between the marble and floor, due to the large surface area under it and the 'loose' fibers of carpet suspending it, even though compressed. And with a wooden floor, I have little doubt that you did have quite an audible improvement.
-Chris
"due to raising the bottom of the speaker off the floor- instead of the weight of the speaker and the floor damping vibrations in the bottom panel of the speaker, by lifting it off the floor and supporting it at the corners"
Uhm, I never considered using speakers with no type of foot on the bottom, wheter it was a spike or rubber foot. But you do have a point, though as you also stated it is very questionalbe that this has an 'audilble' effect as a direct result of the additional surface area.
pinkmouse:
"but the best tweek I ever did was to put my spiked speakers onto paving slabs, that then rested on a carpet on a standard wooden floor"
A very effective decoupling method, that sounds like. The carpet provided a very compliant coupler between the marble and floor, due to the large surface area under it and the 'loose' fibers of carpet suspending it, even though compressed. And with a wooden floor, I have little doubt that you did have quite an audible improvement.
-Chris
mrfeedback said:
Does anybody go back and read previous posts around here ?.
Keywords - nodal, affecting, effecting, voicing.
"Spikes on electronics? Improving sound? On solid state/digital equipment this is a myth."
"and as far as using spikes for electronic equipment (for the purpose of it sounding better), HAHAHAHAHAHA! it does nothing. even cd players have error-correction and you could shake most modern transports and the sound would still get there the same. equipment is NOT effected by movement, let alone small tiny vibrations. think about it, how could that possibly change anything? with records i could understand, but not with solid state..."
Sorry Chris and Cow, this is statement without experiment.
Try running a 1000W audio system in your house and then tell me that acoustic feedback does not influence.
Worst case is that this can cause a CDP to mistrack.
Lesser case is that minor mistracking will cause enough errors for the dsp to have to go into interpolation mode, and this is audible because of temporary halving in bandwidth.
Further effects are caused by high servo stage currents causing modulation of the DSP stage power supplies and consequent jitter production, and modulation of the audio power supplies causing further artifacts.
Try running a high gain audio system and try tapping pcbs and electrolytics - you will be horrified.
Open your CTV and tap the pcb and you will see temporary picture disturbances.
Tube equipment is of course worse in this sensitivity.
This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning.
Go on, do the experimenting before your knowledgeless auto nay-saying and propagation of dis-information.
Eric.
PS - the point of engine valve springs is that they are free, and they work - go on try this experiment also.
"Sorry Chris and Cow, this is statement without experiment"
I have been meaning to drop a hair dryer into the bathtub while bathing, to find out what the results REALLY are.
"Go on, do the experimenting before your knowledgeless auto nay-saying and propagation of dis-information."
You offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONly pure speculation. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your opinion based on anectdotal evidence.
As is common when having no supportive data to verify any statements you make, you like to quote real paramaters/factors but fail to provide relevant correlation, as these quoted effects are never considering thresholds.
Your post is pointless.
-Chris
I have been meaning to drop a hair dryer into the bathtub while bathing, to find out what the results REALLY are.
"Go on, do the experimenting before your knowledgeless auto nay-saying and propagation of dis-information."
You offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONly pure speculation. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your opinion based on anectdotal evidence.
As is common when having no supportive data to verify any statements you make, you like to quote real paramaters/factors but fail to provide relevant correlation, as these quoted effects are never considering thresholds.
Your post is pointless.
-Chris
thank you chris.
plus, when i was a newbie, i was given many many articles to read about electronic design and function. AND, in reading those, the specifically stated that vibration and such does NOT do anything to the electrtonics.
now, you bring up nice and obscure cases. sure, a cd player WILL skip. duh. big whoop. i think we all get that one. but the others? no...
if electonics had a "jitter" factor, it would be a value assigned to particle motion in physics. but my physics is rusty, but i dont think there is such a thing. only in 3 dimensional planar phsyics, not electronics. (in planar physics, its the derivative of acceleration, referred to as jerk).
and btw, i just listented to my amp while shaking it like a british nanny... i even plopped it down on my HDF shelf from about 3 inches up. i did hear a difference actually. you were right. i was very surprised. i heard a loud thud from the amp being dropped down. 🙂
plus, when i was a newbie, i was given many many articles to read about electronic design and function. AND, in reading those, the specifically stated that vibration and such does NOT do anything to the electrtonics.
now, you bring up nice and obscure cases. sure, a cd player WILL skip. duh. big whoop. i think we all get that one. but the others? no...
if electonics had a "jitter" factor, it would be a value assigned to particle motion in physics. but my physics is rusty, but i dont think there is such a thing. only in 3 dimensional planar phsyics, not electronics. (in planar physics, its the derivative of acceleration, referred to as jerk).
and btw, i just listented to my amp while shaking it like a british nanny... i even plopped it down on my HDF shelf from about 3 inches up. i did hear a difference actually. you were right. i was very surprised. i heard a loud thud from the amp being dropped down. 🙂
More Facts.
CHRIS8 - "Spikes on electronics? Improving sound? On solid state/digital equipment this is a myth. No evidence to support this. Speculation" - FLAGELLATION.
"I have been meaning to drop a hair dryer into the bathtub while bathing, to find out what the results REALLY are." - Not much really - if you have a ELB you end up with a sodden hairdryer.
Cowanrg - "and as far as using spikes for electronic equipment (for the purpose of it sounding better), HAHAHAHAHAHA! it does nothing. even cd players have error-correction and you could shake most modern transports and the sound would still get there the same. equipment is NOT effected by movement, let alone small tiny vibrations. think about it, how could that possibly change anything? with records i could understand, but not with solid state..." - SPECULATION
"Try running a 1000W audio system in your house and then tell m that acoustic feedback does not influence." - CHALLENGE.
"Worst case is that this can cause a CDP to mistrack." - FACT.
"Lesser case is that minor mistracking will cause enough errors for the dsp to have to go into interpolation mode, and this is audible because of temporary halving in bandwidth." - FACT.
"Further effects are caused by high servo stage currents causing modulation of the DSP stage power supplies and consequent jitter production, and modulation of the audio power supplies causing further artifacts." - FACT.
"Try running a high gain audio system and try tapping pcbs and electrolytics - you will be horrified." - PROBABLY.
"Open your CTV and tap the pcb and you will see temporary picture disturbances." - FACT.
"Tube equipment is of course worse in this sensitivity." - FACT.
"This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning." - FACT.
"Go on, do the experimenting before your knowledgeless auto nay-saying and propagation of dis-information." - CHALLENGE/FACT.
"Eric." Probably forgotten more than you have learned regarding electronics - OBSERVATION.
"PS - the point of engine valve springs is that they are free, and they work - go on try this experiment also." - FACT/ENCOURAGEMENT
CHRIS8 - "You offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONly pure speculation. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your opinion based on anectdotal evidence.". - INGORANCE.
CHRIS8, all of the above are verifiable by theory and experiment.
Eric.
CHRIS8 - "Spikes on electronics? Improving sound? On solid state/digital equipment this is a myth. No evidence to support this. Speculation" - FLAGELLATION.
"I have been meaning to drop a hair dryer into the bathtub while bathing, to find out what the results REALLY are." - Not much really - if you have a ELB you end up with a sodden hairdryer.
Cowanrg - "and as far as using spikes for electronic equipment (for the purpose of it sounding better), HAHAHAHAHAHA! it does nothing. even cd players have error-correction and you could shake most modern transports and the sound would still get there the same. equipment is NOT effected by movement, let alone small tiny vibrations. think about it, how could that possibly change anything? with records i could understand, but not with solid state..." - SPECULATION
"Try running a 1000W audio system in your house and then tell m that acoustic feedback does not influence." - CHALLENGE.
"Worst case is that this can cause a CDP to mistrack." - FACT.
"Lesser case is that minor mistracking will cause enough errors for the dsp to have to go into interpolation mode, and this is audible because of temporary halving in bandwidth." - FACT.
"Further effects are caused by high servo stage currents causing modulation of the DSP stage power supplies and consequent jitter production, and modulation of the audio power supplies causing further artifacts." - FACT.
"Try running a high gain audio system and try tapping pcbs and electrolytics - you will be horrified." - PROBABLY.
"Open your CTV and tap the pcb and you will see temporary picture disturbances." - FACT.
"Tube equipment is of course worse in this sensitivity." - FACT.
"This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning." - FACT.
"Go on, do the experimenting before your knowledgeless auto nay-saying and propagation of dis-information." - CHALLENGE/FACT.
"Eric." Probably forgotten more than you have learned regarding electronics - OBSERVATION.
"PS - the point of engine valve springs is that they are free, and they work - go on try this experiment also." - FACT/ENCOURAGEMENT
CHRIS8 - "You offer no evidence, data, or rational reasoning. ONly pure speculation. If you wish to state these things it is perfectly ok, but simply do not try to pass them as facts, qualify your statement and simpy admit it is your opinion based on anectdotal evidence.". - INGORANCE.
CHRIS8, all of the above are verifiable by theory and experiment.
Eric.
CHRIS8 said:
What can be better evidence than hearing the difference with your own ears? If you didn't hear the difference, it means that you either didn't try or you were not able to hear the difference. Then the problem is either with your ears or your system. It's so simple.😉
"if you have a ELB you end up with a sodden hairdryer"
Ah, another assumption, with no reason for. So IT will be safe, because you have assumed nesecarry safety circuit. Thank you for your insight, and for explaining ALL of your arguments.
"CHRIS8, all of the above are verifiable by theory and experiment."
ANd you completely skip the last paragraph in my last post, that is the qualifier in my last reply and the answer to most claims you have made. No suprise you ignored that one.
You contribute nothing, exept argument, again. Do I sense a trend?
-Chris
Ah, another assumption, with no reason for. So IT will be safe, because you have assumed nesecarry safety circuit. Thank you for your insight, and for explaining ALL of your arguments.
"CHRIS8, all of the above are verifiable by theory and experiment."
ANd you completely skip the last paragraph in my last post, that is the qualifier in my last reply and the answer to most claims you have made. No suprise you ignored that one.
You contribute nothing, exept argument, again. Do I sense a trend?
-Chris
"If you didn't hear the difference, it means that you either didn't try or you were not able to hear the difference. Then the problem is either with your ears or your system. It's so simple."
Or their is no difference. You were right! So very simple. 🙂
-Chris
Or their is no difference. You were right! So very simple. 🙂
-Chris
"it makes no difference" - FACT
see, i can do that too 🙂
saying fact in pretty caps lock doesnt mean its proof.
see, i can do that too 🙂
saying fact in pretty caps lock doesnt mean its proof.
[
Or their is no difference. You were right! So very simple. 🙂
-Chris [/B][/QUOTE]
Chris, I don't really care what you think and believe. I just tred to broaden your horizons by indirectly saying I CAN hear the difference. I don't give a s**t what you do about it. It's your life. But since you are always after evidence you might as well try to investigate that matter. 😉
PS
Don't take it personally and try to answer my loudspeaker question in the other thread. Affter all we are all here to learn. Aren't we?🙂
Or their is no difference. You were right! So very simple. 🙂
-Chris [/B][/QUOTE]
Chris, I don't really care what you think and believe. I just tred to broaden your horizons by indirectly saying I CAN hear the difference. I don't give a s**t what you do about it. It's your life. But since you are always after evidence you might as well try to investigate that matter. 😉
PS
Don't take it personally and try to answer my loudspeaker question in the other thread. Affter all we are all here to learn. Aren't we?🙂
this will be my final post on the matter.
1.) its opinion. and in my opinion, it doesnt do anything (except for components with moving components, cd transports, speakers, etc... things that move. the laws of physics dont allow for vibration to affect electrical connections...
2.) i am a FIRM believer that spikes make a world of difference when applied in the correct (above-mentioned) applications. i would NOT use my current speakers without them, becasue bass would be too muddled. if i used cd players (just use digital storage of music), i would probably do something to decrease vibration on that, becuase i understand that it can ruin the bitstream, as you mentioned.
3.) i have come to realize i dont know why i numbered these becuase none of them really relate its just random. haha. but in the sake of discussion i am doing to take my small amps that i made (25W/channel), and from the end of their leads to power supply, i am going to bounce them, shake them, even twirl them around on their ends. basically abuse the hell out fo them. ill let you know.
on a side note, for an EXTREME test of what you say, take an MP3 player, and seriously put it into a paint shaker... i bet money it will sound the same... but like i said, this is my last post on this topic, i have said what i need to say, ill let someone else voice their opinion.
1.) its opinion. and in my opinion, it doesnt do anything (except for components with moving components, cd transports, speakers, etc... things that move. the laws of physics dont allow for vibration to affect electrical connections...
2.) i am a FIRM believer that spikes make a world of difference when applied in the correct (above-mentioned) applications. i would NOT use my current speakers without them, becasue bass would be too muddled. if i used cd players (just use digital storage of music), i would probably do something to decrease vibration on that, becuase i understand that it can ruin the bitstream, as you mentioned.
3.) i have come to realize i dont know why i numbered these becuase none of them really relate its just random. haha. but in the sake of discussion i am doing to take my small amps that i made (25W/channel), and from the end of their leads to power supply, i am going to bounce them, shake them, even twirl them around on their ends. basically abuse the hell out fo them. ill let you know.
on a side note, for an EXTREME test of what you say, take an MP3 player, and seriously put it into a paint shaker... i bet money it will sound the same... but like i said, this is my last post on this topic, i have said what i need to say, ill let someone else voice their opinion.
cowanrg said:
Since it's your last post I don't expect you to answer. The test doesn't work like that. First of all you have to have a system with really good resolution. My system is here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4107&perpage=15&pagenumber=3
Then you listen to chosen component (in my case it was DAC) without spikes using well known to you track. Then you put the mentioned component on spikes and listen again. With a right system the difference will be obvious. 😉
"I don't give a s**t what you do about it. It's your life. But since you are always after evidence you might as well try to investigate that matter"
Tempermental are we? I was not 'trying' to be mean. 🙁 You misinterpret my statement.
I believe completely that people percieve differences that are real to THEM. THat is beside the point, and definately not discuss in this thread. I, personally, require substantical, controlled data to at least show lack of positive results in differences of like components/parts/tweaks/etc.
This is not to say I do not use subjective design. In loudspeaker design, of course, subjective methods of voicing, designing must be used if one hopes to actually create a device that evokes strong emotional reactions. This is more a result of no way to standardize recording/mixing methods, studio environments and listening location of the loudspeaker. The best that can be done is to create a sound that is PERCIEVED as real, even if it cannot actually sound like the original, if compared directly to, becuae of the reasons listed above. The worst speakers i have heard(and designed) are the ones that consider the objective to only be ideal measurements. A balance of the two, is in order.
Oh, and of course I will respond to your other thread. 🙂
-Chris
Tempermental are we? I was not 'trying' to be mean. 🙁 You misinterpret my statement.
I believe completely that people percieve differences that are real to THEM. THat is beside the point, and definately not discuss in this thread. I, personally, require substantical, controlled data to at least show lack of positive results in differences of like components/parts/tweaks/etc.
This is not to say I do not use subjective design. In loudspeaker design, of course, subjective methods of voicing, designing must be used if one hopes to actually create a device that evokes strong emotional reactions. This is more a result of no way to standardize recording/mixing methods, studio environments and listening location of the loudspeaker. The best that can be done is to create a sound that is PERCIEVED as real, even if it cannot actually sound like the original, if compared directly to, becuae of the reasons listed above. The worst speakers i have heard(and designed) are the ones that consider the objective to only be ideal measurements. A balance of the two, is in order.
Oh, and of course I will respond to your other thread. 🙂
-Chris
Dealing With The Ignorant
"Ah, another assumption, with no reason for. So IT will be safe, because you have assumed nesecarry safety circuit. Thank you for your insight, and for explaining ALL of your arguments."
I stated experimental conditions ie - ELB.
"As is common when having no supportive data to verify any statements you make, you like to quote real paramaters/factors but fail to provide relevant correlation, as these quoted effects are never considering thresholds."
Ok,
Electrolytic capacitors are microphonic - This an ages known fact.
Interpolation (not error correction) causes halving in bandwidth during the interpolation period - Go study some DSP manuals.
A lousy power supply to the DSP will cause internal crystal oscillator jitter and data output timing errors - more DSP theory.
No amplifiers exhibit perfect PSRR - Go study analogue theory.
Try tapping an audio mixing desk - audio output will result !.
CTV - tuning and oscillator stages are microphonically sensitive.
Tubes - This an ages known fact also.
Cables are microphonic - another old known.
"This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning." and resonances, electrical and mechanical - Which part do you not understand ?.
Chris, I have done all the above experiments and study and found them them to be true.
If you do likewise, you will come to the same summary.
Chris, I am not new or original in stating all the above, so please in future be rather more polite in your communications and if you are in doubt about something merely ask and you will get sincere answers, and always remember -
"It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue." -- Oscar Wilde
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"- Oscar Wilde
Also your title says 'moderator' - is this really setting a good example for acceptable behaviour around here ?.
Eric.
"Ah, another assumption, with no reason for. So IT will be safe, because you have assumed nesecarry safety circuit. Thank you for your insight, and for explaining ALL of your arguments."
I stated experimental conditions ie - ELB.
"As is common when having no supportive data to verify any statements you make, you like to quote real paramaters/factors but fail to provide relevant correlation, as these quoted effects are never considering thresholds."
Ok,
Electrolytic capacitors are microphonic - This an ages known fact.
Interpolation (not error correction) causes halving in bandwidth during the interpolation period - Go study some DSP manuals.
A lousy power supply to the DSP will cause internal crystal oscillator jitter and data output timing errors - more DSP theory.
No amplifiers exhibit perfect PSRR - Go study analogue theory.
Try tapping an audio mixing desk - audio output will result !.
CTV - tuning and oscillator stages are microphonically sensitive.
Tubes - This an ages known fact also.
Cables are microphonic - another old known.
"This is all about microphonics, nodal points, and tuning." and resonances, electrical and mechanical - Which part do you not understand ?.
Chris, I have done all the above experiments and study and found them them to be true.
If you do likewise, you will come to the same summary.
Chris, I am not new or original in stating all the above, so please in future be rather more polite in your communications and if you are in doubt about something merely ask and you will get sincere answers, and always remember -
"It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue." -- Oscar Wilde
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"- Oscar Wilde
Also your title says 'moderator' - is this really setting a good example for acceptable behaviour around here ?.
Eric.
Chris, check my previous post. It will help you to answer the other.😉
I quit an argument here, because it seems like a very personal thing, dependent on a listener. Like Groman said:
What you think and believe that you hear?
I kinda missed him tonight.😉
I quit an argument here, because it seems like a very personal thing, dependent on a listener. Like Groman said:
What you think and believe that you hear?
I kinda missed him tonight.😉
From my post that you quote. 🙂
"to provide relevant correlation, as these quoted effects are never considering thresholds"
Gee, missed it again.
""It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue." - Oscar Wilde"
Posting thie quote??? Hypocryticism from you? No, can't be.
"Also your title says 'moderator' - is this really setting a good example for acceptable behaviour around here ?."
Yes, sorry. I will(not really) consult you on the proper 'conduct' for now on.
-Chris
"to provide relevant correlation, as these quoted effects are never considering thresholds"
Gee, missed it again.
""It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue." - Oscar Wilde"
Posting thie quote??? Hypocryticism from you? No, can't be.
"Also your title says 'moderator' - is this really setting a good example for acceptable behaviour around here ?."
Yes, sorry. I will(not really) consult you on the proper 'conduct' for now on.
-Chris
Peter Daniel said:
There is a third possibility, which is the most likely- you think you hear a diference where none exists.
It IS simple. I readily admit to my weakness as a human being. I admit that the stuff I read about psychoacoustics probably applies to me as I believe it applies to just about everyone. I admit that the psychologists know whereof they speak when they say the mind is easily fooled. I have direct, personal experience where my senses have been easily fooled (ever see any slight of hand magic?).
The problem with subjective testing is that it is NOT valid because of human limitations. The outcome of such testing is ALWAYS a function of the expectations of the listener, their mood, their level of intoxication, and etc. It is my personal experience that if I'm in a good mood, everything sounds better and if I'm in a bad mood everything sounds worse. When I've had a couple beers, I want to listen to different kinds of music than I do when I am not intoxicated. Knowing that my mind reacts to different influences, I would be a fool indeed to make decisions about eqipment purchases based on subjective tests done by others- since I cannot possibly know what is in their head when they do their listening.
If you say you hear an improvement when you change from wire with red insulation to wire with blue insulation, or when you put a Mpingo disk on an amplifier (don't forget to rotate it just so!) then you are either extraordinarily sensistive, or you are fooling yourself. I will always presuppose the latter, and will pity your lack of self-awareness if the former is true.
It is unfortunate that others, who are ignorant of their own limitations, will read subjective reviews and think that they actually have some validity.
Golden ear ego maniacs refuse to admit to their human limitations because that would make them just like everyone else, and there is nothing more terrible (to them) than not being special.
Just my opinion, of course. Your's may differ.
MR
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