This hifimediy dac uses ES9023, it is the old version (not the U2). The clock used in it is a super cheap canned oscillator, and generates a noticeable amount of random jitter, but this doesn't seem to affect the sound, it is very enjoyable !
As for HDMI, I don't know... if you want to keep all the receiver features like DSP etc, the only way would be to change the DAC board I guess...
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So the weaknesses in common receivers are varied.
There is the possibility of poor digital design, either poor layout practices or lower quality parts - or both.
There is the possibility of weak amplifiers, which I believe is the case with my Pioneer HT whereas the rest of it looks pretty good.
Another item that should concern those with expensive speakers - the dc protection is not adequate and if the amplifier fails your speakers may be destroyed. The low-cost relays used on the output of the amplifiers are not rated to handle large dc current into an inductive load (such as a loudspeaker). In the Pioneer they also do not switch the speaker output to ground in order to help extinguish the arc that would form under a hard failure which almost guarantees they can not protect the speaker under these conditions.
This might be one argument in favour of my not upgrading the Pioneer internal amplifier but rather bring out the pre-amp signals to the back panel so that I can use my DIY amplifiers that use more robust solid-state relay speaker protection.
What would be a good multi-pin connector to use in order to have all the pre-outs on one connector ?
There is the possibility of poor digital design, either poor layout practices or lower quality parts - or both.
There is the possibility of weak amplifiers, which I believe is the case with my Pioneer HT whereas the rest of it looks pretty good.
Another item that should concern those with expensive speakers - the dc protection is not adequate and if the amplifier fails your speakers may be destroyed. The low-cost relays used on the output of the amplifiers are not rated to handle large dc current into an inductive load (such as a loudspeaker). In the Pioneer they also do not switch the speaker output to ground in order to help extinguish the arc that would form under a hard failure which almost guarantees they can not protect the speaker under these conditions.
This might be one argument in favour of my not upgrading the Pioneer internal amplifier but rather bring out the pre-amp signals to the back panel so that I can use my DIY amplifiers that use more robust solid-state relay speaker protection.
What would be a good multi-pin connector to use in order to have all the pre-outs on one connector ?
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For a second I though I was reading the description of several of Classe's multichannel preamp. No isolation, no shielding, DAC sitting right out in open. Price? $3800 for pretty basic products.
Picture showing the HDMI PCB of my dead receiver:
Hot BGA chip that is further heated by a hot bridge rectifier below.
Notice the silly print "audio" on the closest small elcaps (power amp frontend). But they cannot cool the chips.
Hot BGA chip that is further heated by a hot bridge rectifier below.
Notice the silly print "audio" on the closest small elcaps (power amp frontend). But they cannot cool the chips.
Some receivers cost $149 and others $7,000 (Pioneer Elite SC-09 for example).
- Some take care of digital jitter, most don't.
- Some have several separate power supplies for the main amplification, the analog circuitry, the digital one, and the video circuitry, most don't.
- Some have decent secondary power storage (farads), most don't.
- Some have Class D power amps, most don't and with inadequate heat sink.
- Some use four power transistors per channel amp, most don't.
- Some include the full bathroom amenities, others only the kitchen sink.
- Some have fans, others they don't.
- Some sound terrible, others no bad but they have other issues (HDMI).
Receivers are the preamp and amp dropped together inside one box.
Some have nine (9) channels of amplification inside, plus a full video processor with dual-core speed and two video chips, plus the entire Ethernet, USB, iPod, HD Radio, XM Radio, three tuners, audio/video streaming, music and video server, nine DSPs of high power (Yamaha flagship), two DACs per each channel (Denon top gun), ARC or Audyssey XT32 Pro system (Anthem, Denon/Marantz, Onkyo/Integra), asynchronous USB DAC (Pioneer), audio and video memory per each input (Onkyo/Integra) with full adjustment parameters, ISF certification and THX Ultra2 Plus certification (Onkyo/Integra), full manual parametric equalization per each individual channel including a subwoofer or two or three, four zones, and a gazillion more features! ...And all of this inside only one single box!
Other people buy roughly ten separate boxes or more for all the things that are inside a receiver.
What is the weakest link inside a common receiver? Everything is united together inside one single box; that's what. This spills over there, that gets contaminated by this, noise plays all over the place and is having fun, and the party is extremely intense inside a very restricted space; there is no room to move, to express yourself, to dance artistically, and they don't even drink cognac but cheap sparkling pink wine from the 70's disco years with that mirror ball attached to the ceiling above the dancing floor, where everyone is moving exactly to the same cowboy foot steps.
- Some take care of digital jitter, most don't.
- Some have several separate power supplies for the main amplification, the analog circuitry, the digital one, and the video circuitry, most don't.
- Some have decent secondary power storage (farads), most don't.
- Some have Class D power amps, most don't and with inadequate heat sink.
- Some use four power transistors per channel amp, most don't.
- Some include the full bathroom amenities, others only the kitchen sink.
- Some have fans, others they don't.
- Some sound terrible, others no bad but they have other issues (HDMI).
Receivers are the preamp and amp dropped together inside one box.
Some have nine (9) channels of amplification inside, plus a full video processor with dual-core speed and two video chips, plus the entire Ethernet, USB, iPod, HD Radio, XM Radio, three tuners, audio/video streaming, music and video server, nine DSPs of high power (Yamaha flagship), two DACs per each channel (Denon top gun), ARC or Audyssey XT32 Pro system (Anthem, Denon/Marantz, Onkyo/Integra), asynchronous USB DAC (Pioneer), audio and video memory per each input (Onkyo/Integra) with full adjustment parameters, ISF certification and THX Ultra2 Plus certification (Onkyo/Integra), full manual parametric equalization per each individual channel including a subwoofer or two or three, four zones, and a gazillion more features! ...And all of this inside only one single box!
Other people buy roughly ten separate boxes or more for all the things that are inside a receiver.
What is the weakest link inside a common receiver? Everything is united together inside one single box; that's what. This spills over there, that gets contaminated by this, noise plays all over the place and is having fun, and the party is extremely intense inside a very restricted space; there is no room to move, to express yourself, to dance artistically, and they don't even drink cognac but cheap sparkling pink wine from the 70's disco years with that mirror ball attached to the ceiling above the dancing floor, where everyone is moving exactly to the same cowboy foot steps.
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Inside the Onkyo 707. ...Denon/Marantz, Arcam, NAD, Sherwood Newcastle, ...they all have similar issues over the past years since HDMI was first introduced in 2004 I believe (in our receivers). ...Ten years.
As a diy guy myself I glue heatsinks atop my fast video processing chips, and put fans atop that HDMI board.
And as an audiophile I don't use video with my audio.
And when I put my videophile suit, my display gets its video source directly from my BD player.
For sound I simply use another HDMI connection for strictly audio, into my pre/pro.
Screw HDMI's slavery; I'm smart, I can circumvent the stupid laws, I learned to live without issues from places like diyaudio and others.
True happiness is in real pictures (outside nature), real people (that you can hug and kiss), and true surround sound (the forests and mountains, and not from the polluted CGI cities).
Electronics; keep it simple, just like in real life.
Get only what you truly need, and no more.
🙂
Bigun, with that big smile in your avatar, how are you doin', today?
As a diy guy myself I glue heatsinks atop my fast video processing chips, and put fans atop that HDMI board.
And as an audiophile I don't use video with my audio.
And when I put my videophile suit, my display gets its video source directly from my BD player.
For sound I simply use another HDMI connection for strictly audio, into my pre/pro.
Screw HDMI's slavery; I'm smart, I can circumvent the stupid laws, I learned to live without issues from places like diyaudio and others.
True happiness is in real pictures (outside nature), real people (that you can hug and kiss), and true surround sound (the forests and mountains, and not from the polluted CGI cities).
Electronics; keep it simple, just like in real life.
Get only what you truly need, and no more.
🙂
Bigun, with that big smile in your avatar, how are you doin', today?
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Hi NorthStar,
New technology does not excuse bad engineering.
I smile when I'm measuring a CD player from the early nineties that has order of magnitudes cleaner fft than this Onkyo.
Now onto my next receiver. I will try Yamaha this time..
New technology does not excuse bad engineering.
I smile when I'm measuring a CD player from the early nineties that has order of magnitudes cleaner fft than this Onkyo.
Now onto my next receiver. I will try Yamaha this time..
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I haven't got a HT receiver but from everything I have read on the interwebs their weak point seems to almost universally be the PSU.
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Joined 2009
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I'm survivin'
Whilst the Pioneer has lots of well separate power supplies for digital, analogue, power analogue etc. I don't find it has adequate capacitance for the power amp. If it had beefy power amp caps then I'd be more happy with it.
Hi NorthStar,
New technology does not excuse bad engineering.
I smile when I'm measuring a CD player from the early nineties that has order of magnitudes cleaner fft than this Onkyo.
Now onto my next receiver. I will try Yamaha this time..
* Yamaha AV Receiver: http://www.areadvd.de/tests/test-yamaha-av-receiver-aventage-rx-a3030-echter-top-performer/
** Yamaha SSP: Yamaha CX-A5000 11.1 SSP (Surround Sound Processor) - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
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The Pioneer VSX-823 receiver; how many separate "transformers" does it have inside?
* Some top tiers Onkyo/Integra receivers have four (4) separate transformers.
- They also weigh 55+ pounds.
Some Yamaha Aventage top receivers (and pre/pro) and Pioneer Elite top receivers now use ESS Sabre DACs.
- One and two of my above links make mention.
Your Pioneer VSX-823 receiver; does it have preouts for all channels?
Also, does it have an analog multichannel input?
* For amplification improvement, add an inexpensive 5-channel Emotiva amplifier (UPA-500 @ $399 MSRP).
** For digital sound improvement, add the Oppo BDP-105 ($999 directly from Oppo - refurb).
*** For analog sound improvement, use the multichannel output (RCA) of the Oppo BDP-105 Universal Blu-ray player.
**** For a better overall life near sound ecstasy level. ...Without emptying your small bank account.
Also, does it have an analog multichannel input?
* For amplification improvement, add an inexpensive 5-channel Emotiva amplifier (UPA-500 @ $399 MSRP).
** For digital sound improvement, add the Oppo BDP-105 ($999 directly from Oppo - refurb).
*** For analog sound improvement, use the multichannel output (RCA) of the Oppo BDP-105 Universal Blu-ray player.
**** For a better overall life near sound ecstasy level. ...Without emptying your small bank account.
That sounds pretty well balanced to me. Speakers matter. Electronics boxes, so long as they are minimally competent, do not.
TEST: Yamaha Vor-/Endstufenkombination CX-5000/MX-5000 | AREA DVD
* Optional kombination to a weak AV receiver.
* Optional kombination to a weak AV receiver.
You want to mate them speakers with the right receiver which can power them properly for the sweetest music singing.
Some speakers demand high current amplification. ...And something that doesn't disintegrate into lower speaker impedance loads.
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
These were interesting links. It seems that the DACs are rarely the weak link in consumer receivers. The weak link looks more likely to be the Mux/volume control chip. There are other possible weaknesses but the article points to this chip (R2A152 in the case of the Pioneer) as a common one.
Bypassing the MUX takes out a lot of the functionality. So in my case, for the VSX-823 the best I could do is take a pre-amp output after the MUX/volume control to an external amp but I'd always be limited by the MUX/Volume control chip.
As for transformers - there is one large one with multiple windings (there is an SMPS in addition to a number of linear supplies fed by the main trafo). There are pro's and con's to having multiple transformers around but clearly when several are used it shows the manufacturer isn't just trying to shave every penny off the cost.
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