No, it really isn't. I use an Anthem MRX300 in my main system. In every hardware respect it's a ~$350ish AVR. Not impressive in that respect at all, and the minor changes to the power supply in the 500/700 are not impressive either. But it just happens to have a grand of room correction (excellent software, a good calibrated mike) as well. That made it the most cost-effective AVR or pre-pro on the market by some margin.
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Power supply - there are multiple supplies, the amplifier has a dedicated supply with one large 6,800uF 63V cap per rail placed close to the rectifier and speaker binding posts. The speaker grounds come back to a star point at these capacitors. Physically there isn't much space but in principle it does appear possible to increase total capacitance. However, I'm not sure this is what I need in order to give the sound more refinement (mids, treble). I assume that the EQ is also mostly applied to low frequencies and therefore better software will not bring more refinement to the mids & treble.
It's hard to say without a service manual but grounding looks quite sophisticated - it's clear that each functional area has it's own ground back to the relevant power supply within the chassis.
It's hard to say without a service manual but grounding looks quite sophisticated - it's clear that each functional area has it's own ground back to the relevant power supply within the chassis.
You have a $400 Pioneer receiver, why don't you try another one from a notch or two higher?
Previously I suggested the Onkyo TX-NR818 ($549-599 street) that retails for $1,199 usd.
Just check it out: specs, features, reviews with lab tests, and all that jazz.
Previously I suggested the Onkyo TX-NR818 ($549-599 street) that retails for $1,199 usd.
Just check it out: specs, features, reviews with lab tests, and all that jazz.
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It's true that my system isn't very balanced, my speakers if bought new would be 20x the cost of my receiver. However, the receiver is already purchased, it's still less than a year old and it does everything we need. If I did buy another I'd still want the 'modern' conveniences for my family so I'd be looking at a new one again even though there is much better value to be found sound-wise from an older one.
But one of the reasons I started this thread was to gain a bit more knowledge about HT receivers regarding sound quality. Are they in fact reasonably balanced designs or do they tend to have poor amplifiers but good everything-else because the advent of modern chips means that the digital side is likely to be very good and it is the analogue side that is likely to be weak in lower cost units ?
I wouldn't dare touch the digital board. I'd be quite happy to touch the amplifier board and if this meant I could turn a $400 receiver into a $1,400 receiver there would be some satisfaction in that.
But one of the reasons I started this thread was to gain a bit more knowledge about HT receivers regarding sound quality. Are they in fact reasonably balanced designs or do they tend to have poor amplifiers but good everything-else because the advent of modern chips means that the digital side is likely to be very good and it is the analogue side that is likely to be weak in lower cost units ?
I wouldn't dare touch the digital board. I'd be quite happy to touch the amplifier board and if this meant I could turn a $400 receiver into a $1,400 receiver there would be some satisfaction in that.
1. That Onkyo receiver I just mentioned above is only a year old or two; it does have features that I consider more beneficial for sound quality than your Pioneer 823 receiver. ...Plus it is better built, @ 40 pounds+.
2. Sell your Pioneer receiver, or make a nice present to someone you love; family, girlfriend, sister, mother, grandfather, kid on the street, ....
3. Go the way of separates; or use a receiver as a preamp, but add a multichannel power amp. ...As long as that receiver has preouts for all channels, of course.
...Because nowadays not all of them do.
Today you can get a five or seven-channel amp for $400 or $500 (Emotiva has some).
4. A good analog section you most likely find in a separate preamp (SSP) and not in a receiver. ...Some SSPs have that, and they only cost $400-800 (street).
...Like from Nuforce, Sherbourn, Emotiva, Outlaw, Integra.
- I wouldn't try to make a $400 receiver sound like a $2,000 analog preamp.
It's a diy project only for the true addicted hardcore people. ...The ones on hard drugs.
P.S. I like your avatar.
2. Sell your Pioneer receiver, or make a nice present to someone you love; family, girlfriend, sister, mother, grandfather, kid on the street, ....
3. Go the way of separates; or use a receiver as a preamp, but add a multichannel power amp. ...As long as that receiver has preouts for all channels, of course.
...Because nowadays not all of them do.
Today you can get a five or seven-channel amp for $400 or $500 (Emotiva has some).
4. A good analog section you most likely find in a separate preamp (SSP) and not in a receiver. ...Some SSPs have that, and they only cost $400-800 (street).
...Like from Nuforce, Sherbourn, Emotiva, Outlaw, Integra.
- I wouldn't try to make a $400 receiver sound like a $2,000 analog preamp.
It's a diy project only for the true addicted hardcore people. ...The ones on hard drugs.
P.S. I like your avatar.
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In the recent past I've been one of those hardcore DIY people 😀
I did have an older Pioneer receiver (I took it from the e-waste at work) and took out the amplifier from it. I modified the amplifier for better sound. It never became a usable amplifier but I learned a lot about the technology Pioneer had used in their amps - but I never learned about what happens upstream from there. I think my current Pioneer receiver uses the same amplifier topology as the older one I modified which means that I could, if warranted, improve the amplifier in my existing receiver through some relatively simple modifications.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/230403-tgm6-amplifier-7-channels.html
I did have an older Pioneer receiver (I took it from the e-waste at work) and took out the amplifier from it. I modified the amplifier for better sound. It never became a usable amplifier but I learned a lot about the technology Pioneer had used in their amps - but I never learned about what happens upstream from there. I think my current Pioneer receiver uses the same amplifier topology as the older one I modified which means that I could, if warranted, improve the amplifier in my existing receiver through some relatively simple modifications.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/230403-tgm6-amplifier-7-channels.html
I would say that the preamp section is more important.
Did you also play with preamps before? 🙂
* Nowadays they replaced the AV receiver's preamp section with USB, Ethernet, iPod, ...features.
Are our receivers becoming weaker sound quality wise because of all the added features?
That could certainly be one of the reasons. ...Last time I checked my ultra high-end audio stereo hi-fi dealer she was out of receivers.
Did you also play with preamps before? 🙂
* Nowadays they replaced the AV receiver's preamp section with USB, Ethernet, iPod, ...features.
Are our receivers becoming weaker sound quality wise because of all the added features?
That could certainly be one of the reasons. ...Last time I checked my ultra high-end audio stereo hi-fi dealer she was out of receivers.
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OK, let's look at the 'pre-amp' then - let's look at the entire analogue chain. Attached is the analogue chain for my HT receiver.
The DAC I have mentioned already and seems that this is a good choice. The pre-amp is a pair of cascaded inverting op-amps set up as unity-gain buffers. I expect them to be 'harmless' in the signal path.
Then into the MUX/volume control chip which I have seen on the internet has also been used by Anthem and by Arcam in some of their products so I think it's in good company. Then into the power amplifier.
The power amplifier is a very simple 'blameless' topology with LTP differential input, single device VAS, bias spreader and then a Sanken Darlington output pair. There is no emitter degeneration or current mirrors on the LTP. It looks rather too basic to me and I feel it would be easy to improve on the amplifier performance.
So what's the opinion on the analogue chain ?
The DAC I have mentioned already and seems that this is a good choice. The pre-amp is a pair of cascaded inverting op-amps set up as unity-gain buffers. I expect them to be 'harmless' in the signal path.
Then into the MUX/volume control chip which I have seen on the internet has also been used by Anthem and by Arcam in some of their products so I think it's in good company. Then into the power amplifier.
The power amplifier is a very simple 'blameless' topology with LTP differential input, single device VAS, bias spreader and then a Sanken Darlington output pair. There is no emitter degeneration or current mirrors on the LTP. It looks rather too basic to me and I feel it would be easy to improve on the amplifier performance.
So what's the opinion on the analogue chain ?
Attachments
Onkyo TXSR 705 and TXSR 805 AV receivers. - Free Online Library
The Onkyo TX-NR818 AV receiver is much more recent, much better with way more features, the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Auto Room Correction and EQ system, THX Select2 Plus certification, way more advanced video processor, 40.5 pounds, way better than the 705, close to the 805 in power, and you can get for $599 right now (year 2012-13 model).
I'm no expert in circuit boards from amps, preamps, CD players, Blu-ray players, etc.
I read a lot, I buy value stuff (which I think is best for the money), I love great sound, I love great picture, and I love life with everything in it.
You and I are no ultra high-end audiophiles, and by a considerable margin.
But we are sure both ultra 'lifephiles' (we love life and the people in it).
* Sell that Pioneer receiver of yours, and explore the universe from another brand new angle. 🙂 ...A more open perspective. ...And it is shiny bright (like smooth butter), and ultra affordable.
The Onkyo TX-NR818 AV receiver is much more recent, much better with way more features, the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Auto Room Correction and EQ system, THX Select2 Plus certification, way more advanced video processor, 40.5 pounds, way better than the 705, close to the 805 in power, and you can get for $599 right now (year 2012-13 model).
I'm no expert in circuit boards from amps, preamps, CD players, Blu-ray players, etc.
I read a lot, I buy value stuff (which I think is best for the money), I love great sound, I love great picture, and I love life with everything in it.
You and I are no ultra high-end audiophiles, and by a considerable margin.
But we are sure both ultra 'lifephiles' (we love life and the people in it).
* Sell that Pioneer receiver of yours, and explore the universe from another brand new angle. 🙂 ...A more open perspective. ...And it is shiny bright (like smooth butter), and ultra affordable.
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Generally I'm a DIY guy - just going out and buying another rig because it's heavier and shiny seems all too easy 😀
These machines often have several board connected together with the cheapest blade connector available, with 1 ground pin per connector of course, and digital and analog signals together.
These Onkyos have pretty good analog stuff inside. If you have analog sources, or a Bluray/whatever with analog outputs, they can be a good option.
But the digital part is a huge steaming cow dung.
It is crap. In Bold.
I mean, they use no master clock, DAC MCK comes either from HDMI or from a CS43xx SPDIF receiver which is the worst, digital signal routing is crap, the DAC board layout is crap, no ground plane, no decoupling, mezzanined above a noisy DSP board, etc, etc. In the last 10-20 years digital audio has made lots of progress, and they basically ignored all this and got everything wrong. None of the digital inputs (including HDMI) produce good sound.
A $30 Hifimediy DAC with a $1 ES9023 inside sounds wayyyy better than this TXNR905 40kg beast.
Hi,
Beware of the Onkyo TX-SR707
Audio:
I second Peufeu's findings. Lots of sidebands (also audible) when measuring digital in - line out. Btw, when prior to purchase asking Onkyo about more detailed distortion specs I got the answer that distortion spec is line in - speaker out. In other words, DA conversion distortion could be anything. Peufeu shows the garbage!
Heat:
From start the receiver runs very warm. I had to select 4Ohm mode to save some heat. No problem as I use external power amps anyway.
I was still worried about heat though. One BGA chip on the top HDMI board did run very hot. The PCB below has a hot rectifier that is placed right under earlier mentioned chip.
Now, about two years later the HDMI PCB is toasted.
Other brands may have issues as well but this receiver was/is pure crap due to bad signal routing and thermal design.
(just google "onkyo tx-sr707 no sound")
Beware of the Onkyo TX-SR707
Audio:
I second Peufeu's findings. Lots of sidebands (also audible) when measuring digital in - line out. Btw, when prior to purchase asking Onkyo about more detailed distortion specs I got the answer that distortion spec is line in - speaker out. In other words, DA conversion distortion could be anything. Peufeu shows the garbage!
Heat:
From start the receiver runs very warm. I had to select 4Ohm mode to save some heat. No problem as I use external power amps anyway.
I was still worried about heat though. One BGA chip on the top HDMI board did run very hot. The PCB below has a hot rectifier that is placed right under earlier mentioned chip.
Now, about two years later the HDMI PCB is toasted.
Other brands may have issues as well but this receiver was/is pure crap due to bad signal routing and thermal design.
(just google "onkyo tx-sr707 no sound")
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The hairy FFT above is from Onkyo TX NR 905 but the DACs seem similar between models.
A top of the range receiver with jitter products above -80dB, FFS. It is worse than a laptop sound chip.
A top of the range receiver with jitter products above -80dB, FFS. It is worse than a laptop sound chip.
You did read the review from that link?
* Sometimes, in life, we try to make the things we already have to sound better.
This happens with our rigs, our audio components, our cars, and even with our wives.
But! There are other times when it is easier (unless we truly love life's challenges) and more beneficial (better sounding)
to simply change the goods (including the wife). 😀
And! We can also upgrade our wires.
Now! What was your question again?
In Onkyo/Integra receivers the 4Ω speaker impedance selection reduces the power (dynamics). And yes, it also reduces heat.
The heat is mainly generated by the HDMI video processor board and the CEC feature.
Best is to simply bypass the video section all together (pass-through) and disable the CEC feature (for HDMI).
Also, disable the on-screen display; another source of noise.
___________
The Pioneer VSX-823 receiver; better digital section than say the Onkyo TX-NR818 receiver?
- The Onkyo 707 -> I don't recommend.
- The Onkyo 805, 875, 905, 876, 906, 3007, 5007, 3008, 5008, 818, 1009, 3009, 5009, 1010, 3010, & 5010 -> That's a good bunch, I think.
You guys know your stuff; then tell me which receivers are good (sound wise; analog and digital, and build wise like implementation of their parts).
...Denon, Marantz, Arcam, Cambridge, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite (class D amps), Rotel, Integra (Onkyo), Sherwood Newcastle (R-972 with Trinnov), ...?
=> Our very nice OP here is asking which section of his Pioneer receiver is the weak link. ...He first suspected that it is the amp section; can he simply add an external multichannel (or stereo) amp?
* Above, from peufeu; "A $30 Hifimedy DAC with a $1 ES9023 ..."; can you add that internally (or externally) to make an Onkyo receiver (like the 905 cited in the example) sound better (digitally)?
I'm glad that you guys joined the discussion; I am learning.
One more thing; the analog inputs (Stereo) on them Onkyo receivers (eg.; 905) are digitized (ADC) from the CirrusLogic chip.
Then, you can use Audyssey with them analog sources, and all the digital bass management.
Unless! You are using the Pure Audio or/and Direct mode.
The Analog multichannel input are not digitized, ever.
Thing is; with analog and no bass management and no room correction and equalization,
you are left with what your speakers sound in your own room (your acoustics).
If your room sounds good, acoustically treated, then it makes sense.
And if your room is less than good, then perhaps some digital "contour" equalization can provide a certain 'sound balance' relief?
The OP here doesn't seem to be interested by his own receiver's MCACC room EQ system (with Phase adjust), bla-bla-bla.
But his family (wife and kids) appreciate the Network features and all that iPod type of streaming jazz.
And! On the other side of the coin, he is conscientious on pure sound quality (no DSP stuff, no MCACC, ...), just clean amplification of the low level audio signals.
...Digitally, and 'analogically'.
What is, and what is his best option?
Then, you can use Audyssey with them analog sources, and all the digital bass management.
Unless! You are using the Pure Audio or/and Direct mode.
The Analog multichannel input are not digitized, ever.
Thing is; with analog and no bass management and no room correction and equalization,
you are left with what your speakers sound in your own room (your acoustics).
If your room sounds good, acoustically treated, then it makes sense.
And if your room is less than good, then perhaps some digital "contour" equalization can provide a certain 'sound balance' relief?
The OP here doesn't seem to be interested by his own receiver's MCACC room EQ system (with Phase adjust), bla-bla-bla.
But his family (wife and kids) appreciate the Network features and all that iPod type of streaming jazz.
And! On the other side of the coin, he is conscientious on pure sound quality (no DSP stuff, no MCACC, ...), just clean amplification of the low level audio signals.
...Digitally, and 'analogically'.
What is, and what is his best option?
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The Pioneer has extensive grounding. It looks like digital and analogue don't share connectors and the different grounds are well separated for the boards I looked at (I didn't look at *every* connector yet).
Each analogue connector carrying signals is made up from channel-ground-channel-ground.. i.e. there is a signal ground between each sound channel at each connector and associated cables.
The small signal grounds at the front end of the power amplifier are separated from the high power grounds of the output stage of the power amplifier which is good practice.
By understanding the weaknesses of the receiver I think we can make better choices in what we buy and deciding if we are paying for 'hype' or 'substance'.
I believe I can either modify the existing amplifier (e.g. add emitter degeneration to the LTP and increase open loop gain with additional transistor to the VAS), or I can tap off the input to the power amplifier and install a multi-pin connector on the back panel which I can then connect to an external amplifier of my own design and build (which I know already sounds amazing when used with a good source). Of course I can also go buy a new HT receiver 😀
Well I would say that I am appreciative of what the EQ can do for me, as so far it seems to be doing a creditable job of balancing the channels for my listening room. I believe the EQ works mostly at low frequencies (?) so it doesn't help address some of the early reflection problems that I may have but which I should likely address with 'room treatments'.
However, I have heard great performance from my own amps through the same speakers (although with a high end CD player as the source) in this listening space so I have been assuming that the room is not the issue and neither are the speakers. My first priority is actually the mids & treble that I want to improve so that when I have those really good BluRays that have been properly recorded and mastered - I can get great sound. Of course nobody turns down advice on how to achieve better bass either.
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By the way, the Onkyo TX-NR905 weighs (net) 24.5 kilos (54 pounds), and not 40kg (88 lbs).
P.S. Peufeu, could you share more on your 905's internal digital modification, please? ...I am extremely interested.
P.S. Peufeu, could you share more on your 905's internal digital modification, please? ...I am extremely interested.
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Sure : connect external DAC using RCA cable 😀
Or connect to vinyl rig (the phono section is not bad).
It is not a good idea to modify it. The amps work well so why fix them ? And the DAC board is so bad it would need to be completely redone. And it would still sit 1cm above the noisy DSP... Way too much work for an uncertain result. Better sell it (I got mine much cheaper than the "new" price)...
+1 point for Pioneer then.
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