I think that you will find that working with veneers can be very satisfying. You can make the cabinet of your dreams and then cover it with a beautiful veneer.
Vic
Vic
The Sound Of One Tree Falling......
Hi Gray, we haven't spoken in a long time.
Thanks, and that is a good suggestion of yours.
Did you see the Bee-hive box pics I posted earlier ?.
These have interlocking rabetted joints, and in my experience this gives a very good sounding panel joint.
A box could be built using parquetry fingers or the Oak flooring that you mention such that all joints are of rebatted costruction.
If finished really neatly this could look really sexy too.
The fact that all the pieces used have a degree of randomness is a big asset imo.
I have also seen little desk accessory pen holder thingies (Ikea or the $2.00 shop ?) that are made of rabetted small panels and just need a heavy top (front) panel to mount the driver into - these could make really neat surround or PC speaker cabinets etc.
Generally - One of the points that I am trying to make is that the type of wood used has a direct sonic influence, and this signature is not straight down to measurable panel resonances.
I have heard very, very dead MDF cabinets using world class drivers and they all have a little MDF signature.
I don't like the smell, the taste, the touch, the look even, and neither do I like sound of MDF.
All materials have a signature if you listen for it - I prefer materials that are benign or desirable, and I find that distasteful materials sound like distasteful materials.
I understand that MDF is the most fantastically practical material for building enclosures, but in my opinion which stems from my experience, loudspeakers that are wholly MDF sonically suck.
Very heavy chipboard is acceptable and better still is very heavy plywood - strongly wood species dependant.
Very heavy (thick) cabinets using glued (big) fingers of wood and interlocking (rabetted) of all corner joints would be labour intensive, but could look spectacular.
The character of the imparted cabinet sounds would then be that of the natural wood used, and I think this can be a good thing.
Eric.
GRollins said:
Hi Gray, we haven't spoken in a long time.
Thanks, and that is a good suggestion of yours.
Did you see the Bee-hive box pics I posted earlier ?.
These have interlocking rabetted joints, and in my experience this gives a very good sounding panel joint.
A box could be built using parquetry fingers or the Oak flooring that you mention such that all joints are of rebatted costruction.
If finished really neatly this could look really sexy too.
The fact that all the pieces used have a degree of randomness is a big asset imo.
I have also seen little desk accessory pen holder thingies (Ikea or the $2.00 shop ?) that are made of rabetted small panels and just need a heavy top (front) panel to mount the driver into - these could make really neat surround or PC speaker cabinets etc.
Generally - One of the points that I am trying to make is that the type of wood used has a direct sonic influence, and this signature is not straight down to measurable panel resonances.
I have heard very, very dead MDF cabinets using world class drivers and they all have a little MDF signature.
I don't like the smell, the taste, the touch, the look even, and neither do I like sound of MDF.
All materials have a signature if you listen for it - I prefer materials that are benign or desirable, and I find that distasteful materials sound like distasteful materials.
I understand that MDF is the most fantastically practical material for building enclosures, but in my opinion which stems from my experience, loudspeakers that are wholly MDF sonically suck.
Very heavy chipboard is acceptable and better still is very heavy plywood - strongly wood species dependant.
Very heavy (thick) cabinets using glued (big) fingers of wood and interlocking (rabetted) of all corner joints would be labour intensive, but could look spectacular.
The character of the imparted cabinet sounds would then be that of the natural wood used, and I think this can be a good thing.
Eric.
Eric
I would agree with you. If you look at the link in my post above you'll see how we use wood to build solid but resonant cabs. We believe that there is little to gained from fighting the natural resonance of wood, and indeed a lot to be gained from working with the natural way wood resonates.
Most of our cabs use 12mm panels which resonate in a controlled way. How we achieve that is partly due to the exterior framework but also the detailed design work which goes into matching cab size, material, driver, and expectations.
Rossco
I would agree with you. If you look at the link in my post above you'll see how we use wood to build solid but resonant cabs. We believe that there is little to gained from fighting the natural resonance of wood, and indeed a lot to be gained from working with the natural way wood resonates.
Most of our cabs use 12mm panels which resonate in a controlled way. How we achieve that is partly due to the exterior framework but also the detailed design work which goes into matching cab size, material, driver, and expectations.
Rossco
I have (or had) an article in SpeakerBuilder that had a guy who suggested that MDF was too soft a material, but that solids like concrete and glass were to hard and would ruin certain frequencies. Consequently he manufactured an enclosure material by mixing ground up tire rubber, glass and sand and molding it into sheets and making enclosures. He said you should use a little of everything to get the best results. I for one am quite skeptical about that method.
How about an MDF - rubber - hardwood sandwich? The MDF gives the internal reflections like we expect, the rubber damps any of the vibrations from reaching the hardwood, which of course is purely decorative.
🙂ensen.
🙂ensen.
purplepeople said:
We may expect some internal reflections if we haven't done our job correctly. I hope you are not suggesting that in some cases internal reflections are desirable?
This is a very odd thread on the overall - trying to make a case for a deficient enclosure does not seem reasonable.
I think I am yet to hear a perfect enclosure whatever that is.
I have heard cabinets that are nearly completely dead that sucked, others that were reasonably close to dead that sounded good or sucked, and lively cabints that sounded good or sucked.
Cabinet mass is a function of materials costs, labour costs, transport costs, taxes, dealer markup etc.
Aural acceptance is a function of musicality, and a mostly dead cabinet does not by definition mean musical.
In my experience, regardless of mass or resonances, an ALL MDF cabinet sonically sucks and will never be musically pleasing.
I have heard real wood or ply cabinets that I liked, but never MDF.
Eric.
I guess I don't understand what a "dead" cabinet is supposed to sound like. I think that if you hear a dead cabinent that "sucked" it's not the cabinent, it's the entire speaker. I personally don't want to hear a cabinet at all.
Vic
Vic
Bill Fitzpatrick said:
There will always be internal reflections, unless the interior is an anechoic chamber. Even over stuffing won't prevent all of it. What I meant is that we all know what an MDF enclosure "sounds" like and keeping MDF on the inside maintains that signature for the internal acoustics.
So now I propose using plywood - rubber - hardwood. Would the plywood give a different sonic signature. Probably. Would the vibrations reach the outside, I'm betting that it can be minimized. Basically, I'm suggesting a method of damping the vibrations to the outside of the cabinet thereby minimizing the amount of "speaker" coming from the enclosure panels.
Would rubber on the inside be better, I don't know, but it would provide a significantly different flavour than an internal wood (product) surface. Would using styrofoam between the layers damp better? Probably, but that may also "deaden" it too much. The fact is that due to imperfect material and compromises in design, we are all attuned to some degree of resonance coming from a cabinet, even the very "dead" ones.
🙂ensen.
I saw a post somewhere where someone had installed bracing around the outside of a cab at different levels and the sound changed according to the position of the bracing , the number of braces and the loading of the braces?
ron
ron
It could be as simple as putting big C-clamps to prevent panels from expanding near their centre. But is the change desirable. It would certainly deaden it which Eric believes sucks the musicality out of the sound. Would it be still be interesting to Nelson? Would I like it? On a good cabinet, would I notice? Who knows!
🙂ensen.
🙂ensen.
mrfeedback said:
But a speaker enclosure is not SUPPOSED to be musical or have traits that are either pleasing or displeasing. It should be inert, having no character at all.
I agree with Vic. If a system in a dead enclosure sucks you can't blame the enclosure. Now, that's pretty obvious isn't it?
Of course if the system design sucks and can be made to sound more pleasing to you by putting it in a live enclosure, then by all means, do so.
I certainly don't envy those who tried to tell people that the earth was a sphere!
Once again, we're getting into the either/or argument. Highly tiresome if you ask me... Where is the healthy medium? Or would both camps say that is too much of a compromise, in which case, some would say that my wanting to go there is probably a good idea.
So, I ask the deadheads: Is deader really better? Other that an ongoing response of "silent cabinet" tell me some good reasons why... are you trying to approximate an infinite baffle? If so, why build enclosures. Put up a whole wall, earthquake proof it, then drill some holes for the drivers. Now since that highly impractical for most of us, and nearly impossible on the WAF-o-meter, how would you make the MDF deader than it is now. Some sandwich constructions like I suggest? Different materials to stuff with?How would that translate? Would it sound like a driver in an anechoic chamber (which I've been told sounds really weird, BTW)?
And to the livewires: If you are after some control over the live-ness, what do you do? Wouldn't the Direct/Reflecting Bose 01 series speakers give you this liveness? How about using deflection panels in front of the speaker to divert the forward waves? Could you construct structures on the panels to create specific resonances - maybe fins or ribs. Would mixing and matching specific species of hardwoods in specific patterns create the necessary structures. How about concentric circles of materials that get softer and softer giving each panel a controlled flex?
Come on folks, I dare you...
🙂ensen.
So, I ask the deadheads: Is deader really better? Other that an ongoing response of "silent cabinet" tell me some good reasons why... are you trying to approximate an infinite baffle? If so, why build enclosures. Put up a whole wall, earthquake proof it, then drill some holes for the drivers. Now since that highly impractical for most of us, and nearly impossible on the WAF-o-meter, how would you make the MDF deader than it is now. Some sandwich constructions like I suggest? Different materials to stuff with?How would that translate? Would it sound like a driver in an anechoic chamber (which I've been told sounds really weird, BTW)?
And to the livewires: If you are after some control over the live-ness, what do you do? Wouldn't the Direct/Reflecting Bose 01 series speakers give you this liveness? How about using deflection panels in front of the speaker to divert the forward waves? Could you construct structures on the panels to create specific resonances - maybe fins or ribs. Would mixing and matching specific species of hardwoods in specific patterns create the necessary structures. How about concentric circles of materials that get softer and softer giving each panel a controlled flex?
Come on folks, I dare you...
🙂ensen.
Some facts for fictionists
Here's some facts for you to chew on ...
MDF resonates most heavely between 250-300 Hz
therefore it's an ideal (because its cheap) material for subwoofers but not mid enclosures... (i agree with many here that the enclosure should be as quiet as possible --- only the cone is to make noise and NOTHING else for true signal reproduction... the rest is just distortion, no matter how you view it...)
All materials resonate at some frequency, but a good way to eliminate resonances is to make a sandwich construction (sand in between, or aucostical dampening pads, is optimal...)
You can find the resonance frequency of a given cabinet by playing a sweeping sinus tone, while simply hold you hand to the cabinet and then observe when it vibrates the most
As far as I know plywood sandwich would be the better choice for mid enclosures with sand (½ inch thick layer or more, is optimal) in between, with a as thin as possible outer shell to keep the sand in place... Real wood do tend to ring as many mentions...
Bracing a mid enclosure cabinet is usually not necesary as opposed to bass cabinets, but both need to be as silent or 'sound proof' as possible for best results...
For more info check out this page (and others nearby...):
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1011/page_9.php
Hobbes
Here's some facts for you to chew on ...
MDF resonates most heavely between 250-300 Hz
therefore it's an ideal (because its cheap) material for subwoofers but not mid enclosures... (i agree with many here that the enclosure should be as quiet as possible --- only the cone is to make noise and NOTHING else for true signal reproduction... the rest is just distortion, no matter how you view it...)
All materials resonate at some frequency, but a good way to eliminate resonances is to make a sandwich construction (sand in between, or aucostical dampening pads, is optimal...)
You can find the resonance frequency of a given cabinet by playing a sweeping sinus tone, while simply hold you hand to the cabinet and then observe when it vibrates the most
As far as I know plywood sandwich would be the better choice for mid enclosures with sand (½ inch thick layer or more, is optimal) in between, with a as thin as possible outer shell to keep the sand in place... Real wood do tend to ring as many mentions...
Bracing a mid enclosure cabinet is usually not necesary as opposed to bass cabinets, but both need to be as silent or 'sound proof' as possible for best results...
For more info check out this page (and others nearby...):
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1011/page_9.php
Hobbes
My feeling is appropriate materials for the desired task is not a compromise at all.
Ply and MDF have accepted non-resonant qualities and are easy to work with.
Solid wood has it's drawbacks concerning movement, but given a variety of damping treatments, and certainly in smaller cabs, it can be made as dead as needed.
Clearly, one shouldn't expect to make a decent sounding subwoofer from an apple basket, but no one is suggesting that. My interest is in attractive uses for hardwood in speaker enclosures because furniture quality speakers is what we can make. After you've built some, and found that better sounding speakers for a given price are possible, why not better _looking_?
We see examples of this in many posts here. I have seen many beautiful cabinets displayed that should make their builder's proud. My remarks concerning veneering shouldn't be construed to suggest disdain, rather I'm interested in sharing ideas and techniques that broaden our understanding and construction possibilities.
Here's an idea: Want to build a cheap and easy cylindrical cabinet?
The large wire spools (the ones college kids use for coffee tables) are often made with curved slats as the central hub. These can be disassembled and the slats screwed to custom shaped frames. Resaw the angles and spline joint as needed.
The interior or exterior of this wooden cylinder can then be laminated with any suitable, flexible sheet, even sheetrock, scored, glued and plastered, glue, resin, plaster, whatever. I suggest bedding rock with Durabond 90, and nylon lath. (I've never tried bending steamed or wetted 1/4" luan)
How about a shop made tambour veneer? It's just half rounds, glued to fabric, and a great way to use up those odd lengths and number two-outs. (bad boards)
And Purple- If you have any ideas you'd like me to try- I'm game. Are you leaning toward the variable passive radiator, or the giant sidewall thumbscrew?
x.onasis: I think you've summed up the entire thread.
As for cheap and easy cylindrical - try the cardboard concrete forms. Lots have used for subs. Tubes that start at 6" diameter and get really big. You could veneer or other wood treatment. Many just paint.
I've been thinking about the following surfaces to try when finishing:
1) Wallpaper - not the cheap variety but the kind that is almost a cloth with textures and patterns. French provincial?
2) Grill cloth to provide a total grille look. There may be some diffusive effects to break up some of the resonances coming off the cabinet.
3) Neoprene (from wetsuits or mouse pads) to rubberize the surface and damp any emissions. Very industrial look.
4) Rowmark brand plastics. They come in metallized looks without the ringing effects of metal sheets.
5) Denim bonded with spray adhesive. Cloth is a natural damper and blue speakers might look kind of cool.
🙂ensen.
As for cheap and easy cylindrical - try the cardboard concrete forms. Lots have used for subs. Tubes that start at 6" diameter and get really big. You could veneer or other wood treatment. Many just paint.
I've been thinking about the following surfaces to try when finishing:
1) Wallpaper - not the cheap variety but the kind that is almost a cloth with textures and patterns. French provincial?
2) Grill cloth to provide a total grille look. There may be some diffusive effects to break up some of the resonances coming off the cabinet.
3) Neoprene (from wetsuits or mouse pads) to rubberize the surface and damp any emissions. Very industrial look.
4) Rowmark brand plastics. They come in metallized looks without the ringing effects of metal sheets.
5) Denim bonded with spray adhesive. Cloth is a natural damper and blue speakers might look kind of cool.
🙂ensen.
damping MDF
Im sure no expert but I have had good success damping 3/4" mdf with lead shot available at your local gun-nut supply store. I pour the shot into latex based tile adhesive, teh other way around doesn't work. Use lots more shot than adhesive--take that into account in the mixing container. Apply it to the panels like you were painting with a pallet knife and it will nicely spread one bead thick if you haven't too much adhesive in the mix. Course the panels have to be horizontal and this is (I think) best done before glue-up (mask off the joint areas).
eStatic
Im sure no expert but I have had good success damping 3/4" mdf with lead shot available at your local gun-nut supply store. I pour the shot into latex based tile adhesive, teh other way around doesn't work. Use lots more shot than adhesive--take that into account in the mixing container. Apply it to the panels like you were painting with a pallet knife and it will nicely spread one bead thick if you haven't too much adhesive in the mix. Course the panels have to be horizontal and this is (I think) best done before glue-up (mask off the joint areas).
eStatic
I have had good response with this combo.The MDF appears to help damp the 7Khz lump in the FR curve.Note! these are temporary enclosures till i get the horns built.
ron
http://community.webtv.net/roncla/Temphome
ron
http://community.webtv.net/roncla/Temphome
I've been thinking about this question. And if I got a wild hair to do a real wood speaker I would investigate pinblock maple. It's used to hold the tuning pins in good and fine quality instruments that require string pins, e.g. pianos, harps, and the finest grade of auto-harps and dulcimers.) Good such stuff has a strength and density and potential beauty I think you could find nowhere else. Its construction equals that of aviation-grade plywood mentioned by Jerr R in another thread. And, as you might expect pinblock maple is take-your-breath-way expensive.
eStatic
eStatic
I used many species of maple but have never heard of pinblock maple, are you sure that is not just a local nick name for that application.
Maple is good however, it need to be very dry as it warps and twists when even after it been kiln dryed. MDF id the great material for speakers, you don't have to make lot of glue up and machine a lot of wood besides it's stable. It's also easy to damp out resonates. MDF leave you open to use many different species of fine veneers and it lowers the cost of the project.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.