No resale issues for VW's because they're the only diesel cars? First, it's not true. Second, many people may now become suspicious and wary of those diesel engines (maybe for good reason) and choose to look at other vehicle options.
I'm not sure what you're thanking VW for, as I'm pretty sure they were not thinking of the customer when they did this. This is a violation of customer trust, plain and simple (and the trust of VW Dealers as well!).
I, for one, think this will end up dissuading many from buying a VW Diesel in the States...too bad. I was just considering buying a Diesel BMW just a few weeks ago - I ended up buying gasoline instead, but just got T-Boned last week, and if Insurance totals the car, I will be actively be looking at those "out of favor" Diesels....a VW or BMW... 🙂
But I don't understand why VW did this in the first place - the merits of Diesel powered car speak volumes, and VW was selling them like hotcakes...maybe an attempt to thwart the competition from other manufacturers like BMW due to rising popularity in the states???
I work in an Oil Refinery, and our Wet Gas Scrubber uses an Ammonia based injection system along with a bed of Catalyst in the SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) to lower NOx / SOx to acceptable levels. I would imagine most Diesel engines also have same similar system to lower NOx / SOx using Urea instead of Ammonia?
But I don't understand why VW did this in the first place - the merits of Diesel powered car speak volumes, and VW was selling them like hotcakes...maybe an attempt to thwart the competition from other manufacturers like BMW due to rising popularity in the states???
I work in an Oil Refinery, and our Wet Gas Scrubber uses an Ammonia based injection system along with a bed of Catalyst in the SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) to lower NOx / SOx to acceptable levels. I would imagine most Diesel engines also have same similar system to lower NOx / SOx using Urea instead of Ammonia?
Jacco you are are back tracking and rationalizing. I read well enough to see what you said. You don't think it's a big deal and you blame the people who got cheated. Nice.
I'm confused. Is this scandal about cars with the urea (DEF) injection systems in place and working, or not?
I've used commercial vehicles with such system and I remember when I first got to use one, shoving a wodge of paper towels on the exhaust pipe opening and it came away clean as a whistle.
Can't say what it did for NOx, but it smelled not much of anything.
I've used commercial vehicles with such system and I remember when I first got to use one, shoving a wodge of paper towels on the exhaust pipe opening and it came away clean as a whistle.
Can't say what it did for NOx, but it smelled not much of anything.
Phil, why are you so grumpy?
I love my TDI Golf and I think its one of the best cars built today. Its definitely better than the Subaru STI ( Broke a piston at 30,000 km) that I traded in.
The biggest issue with meeting emissions is the DPF filter, and is probably why the newest generation cars have switched to running DEF fluid, and that is a major pain to be dumping out of a jug every 5th fill.
Pre 2015 no DEF fluid. = happy customer. Thank-you VW 🙂
18.5L of DEF on the Chevy Cruze, thats an extra $25 every 2nd fill. No thank-you 🙁
Look up DEF delete on the net. I think a lot of people will be removing this system because of the added cost and hassle of using the Blue juice. So whats worse?
I love my TDI Golf and I think its one of the best cars built today. Its definitely better than the Subaru STI ( Broke a piston at 30,000 km) that I traded in.
The biggest issue with meeting emissions is the DPF filter, and is probably why the newest generation cars have switched to running DEF fluid, and that is a major pain to be dumping out of a jug every 5th fill.
Pre 2015 no DEF fluid. = happy customer. Thank-you VW 🙂
18.5L of DEF on the Chevy Cruze, thats an extra $25 every 2nd fill. No thank-you 🙁
Look up DEF delete on the net. I think a lot of people will be removing this system because of the added cost and hassle of using the Blue juice. So whats worse?
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The folks who got cheated are the ones who bought the damn things.
If they're lucky, they'll receive sufficient compensation for the financial damage they will/may suffer because of this.
The big winner is the EPA.
Backtracking and rationalizing are the primary characteristics of the smarter, not of those with the lowest moral standards or the most naive.
(US citizens haven't got a clue how difficult it is to get an American import on licence here)
I wish the authorities paid as much attention to bs audio specifications and testing as they did to VW's emissions 😀
Whatever the outcom, then are still damn good cars
Whatever the outcom, then are still damn good cars
damuffin - I don't sense any grumpiness in 'phil's post above - at least no more so than might be characteristic 😉 -
I think the first part of his comment was based on surprise as to your comment that VW are/ were the only diesel cars available in Canada - that's simply not the case.
As for folks predicating resale value of any particular market segment / brand or model, their crystal balls must be shiny to be confident of that.
I don't think anyone is denying that VW can engineer a motor car as well as the next group of engineers, or buy other companies that do, but it's the subterfuge here that has many folks exercised.
I think the first part of his comment was based on surprise as to your comment that VW are/ were the only diesel cars available in Canada - that's simply not the case.
As for folks predicating resale value of any particular market segment / brand or model, their crystal balls must be shiny to be confident of that.
I don't think anyone is denying that VW can engineer a motor car as well as the next group of engineers, or buy other companies that do, but it's the subterfuge here that has many folks exercised.
VW's have to be equipped with EPA approved Quantum Purifiers, no doubt in my mind.
As Chris pointed out, I'm not mad at anyone here, I'm just surprised at a few of the comments made, that's all.
Here's the problem as I see it (from a consumer's point of view). We bought a VW golf diesel wagon on a number of claims that we took to be reliable and generally true:
1. The car would be as fuel efficient as advertised (or better, as many owners and reviews reported) while at the same time being reasonably 'clean'.
2. The car would have decent performance as well (decent horsepower and great torque)
3. The car would have very good resale value (as VW diesels tended to have in Canada).
It seems that at least two of those claims were probably not true and, if so, then we were deliberately deceived (not by the dealer, but by the manufacturer).
Put simply, we were sold snake oil.
Now someone might counter by claiming it's our responsibility to detect those things, but neither my wife nor I have the technical know-how to test the claims being made. We have to rely on those directly or indirectly involved in the automobile industry for advice as to the truth of those claims, and there was nothing I found when researching those cars that indicated any suspicion of snake oil. Since snake oil was apparently involved, then the industry as a whole failed those consumers like us who depend in it as a source of reliable information.
Diesels are big in Europe and elsewhere, with a lot of very smart engineers doing a lot of interesting research on engine design and so on. Surely there must have been at least some engineers who were working on bringing diesel to North America who must have smelled something rotten in VW's claims (either that or they must have assumed that VW had some magic formula that no one else in the automobile industry could replicate). The fact that VW alone seemed to possess a magic formula that no one else could replicate should have set off a few lightbulbs in Europe and Japan, and yet everyone seems to have remained silent. If true, then this is not good, and I think it's this that has jacco so tied up in knots (at least in part).
VW's snake oil bugs me a lot, for it seems an obvious case of deliberate deceit and breach of trust. But if others knew or suspected that something was wrong, but didn't call them on it, then that also reflects badly on the industry as a whole.
Despite all that, my wife and I still like the car. It's a great little wagon and I hope it keeps performing as well as it has to date.
Here's the problem as I see it (from a consumer's point of view). We bought a VW golf diesel wagon on a number of claims that we took to be reliable and generally true:
1. The car would be as fuel efficient as advertised (or better, as many owners and reviews reported) while at the same time being reasonably 'clean'.
2. The car would have decent performance as well (decent horsepower and great torque)
3. The car would have very good resale value (as VW diesels tended to have in Canada).
It seems that at least two of those claims were probably not true and, if so, then we were deliberately deceived (not by the dealer, but by the manufacturer).
Put simply, we were sold snake oil.
Now someone might counter by claiming it's our responsibility to detect those things, but neither my wife nor I have the technical know-how to test the claims being made. We have to rely on those directly or indirectly involved in the automobile industry for advice as to the truth of those claims, and there was nothing I found when researching those cars that indicated any suspicion of snake oil. Since snake oil was apparently involved, then the industry as a whole failed those consumers like us who depend in it as a source of reliable information.
Diesels are big in Europe and elsewhere, with a lot of very smart engineers doing a lot of interesting research on engine design and so on. Surely there must have been at least some engineers who were working on bringing diesel to North America who must have smelled something rotten in VW's claims (either that or they must have assumed that VW had some magic formula that no one else in the automobile industry could replicate). The fact that VW alone seemed to possess a magic formula that no one else could replicate should have set off a few lightbulbs in Europe and Japan, and yet everyone seems to have remained silent. If true, then this is not good, and I think it's this that has jacco so tied up in knots (at least in part).
VW's snake oil bugs me a lot, for it seems an obvious case of deliberate deceit and breach of trust. But if others knew or suspected that something was wrong, but didn't call them on it, then that also reflects badly on the industry as a whole.
Despite all that, my wife and I still like the car. It's a great little wagon and I hope it keeps performing as well as it has to date.
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I have to say that not only was my Passat the worst car I ever owned, VW was the worst company I ever dealt with when the problems started. I'll never go back to them- we've been far happier with the Asian cars we've owned.
I still firmly believe the cars in question will still pass emissions after a firmware update, but will suffer 1 - 2 mpg loss. Is this really a catastrophe?
This seems way overblown, and like I said I would still not hesitate on buying one.
This seems way overblown, and like I said I would still not hesitate on buying one.
I guess as the saying goes - YMMV - the only VW I ever owned was a totally crapped out diesel Rabbit about 25yrs ago when I was rather short on finances. There was a lot to not like about it, but it ran forever and other than brakes and one set of glow plugs, didn't cost me a helluva lot.
I'm with SY on the Asian cars, all told we've had 8 of them in our family - going back to a red '73 Celica - our honeymoon car that year, up to my wife's current Subaru Forester - a great ride. All have been mechanically great -not the manufacture's fault if you don't maintain them, or if repairs after a not quite "totalled" collision don't make them good as new.
I'm with SY on the Asian cars, all told we've had 8 of them in our family - going back to a red '73 Celica - our honeymoon car that year, up to my wife's current Subaru Forester - a great ride. All have been mechanically great -not the manufacture's fault if you don't maintain them, or if repairs after a not quite "totalled" collision don't make them good as new.
VW quality has improved a lot in the last 10 years or so, and I think they are generally very solid vehicles. That said, I personally drive a little Honda Element which is a wonderful small utility vehicle that has caused me no problems to date. I was actually considering trading it in on a VW diesel within the next year or so, but I would need damn good assurance from the industry before I would do that now.
Political posts swept into the dustbin. 
I see your 73 Celica and I up it to:
Me: 74 & 78
Brother: 86
Mother: 86
Father 86 & 90
We should have had our own TV ad. 🙂
This article (and the emissions-testing-detection code is definitely "the hack of the day") contains both more history and more tech info than I've seen elsewhere. I find it especially interesting the difference between CO2 vs NOx regulations in different parts of the world:
Ethics in Engineering: Volkswagen’s Diesel Fiasco | Hackaday
Ethics in Engineering: Volkswagen’s Diesel Fiasco | Hackaday
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