tlf9999 said:
Please elaborate. Other than harnessing the power of children, wind seems the least of the power generating evils.
Very few birds get clobbered by these things, and the ones that are might just be the dumb ones that the species as a whole can do without.
I think the visual impact is the real detractor (cost also) and it's human nature to try and find the wrongs with something you don't like the look of. Sounds a lot like racism doesn't it?
Cal
Cal Weldon said:
Personally, I find them very elegant and attractive. But then I do like machines! 😉
pinkmouse said:
I don't have a problem with them either, other than that they're always painted boring white! I know that PTFE is available in colours other than white...
Edit: I preferred your Groucho Marx comment to the new Karl Marx one.
I always liked them in theory, but there is a place in California near here which has hundreds. Then they kind of look like a mess.
In the paper there was a recent article. They are shutting down half of them for the winter because there is less wind then and they don't generate as much power anyway.
It turns out there is a nesting grounds very close by, and migratory birds fly over the same pass in the hills.
The number of birds killed is over 4000 per year, including hawks and Golden Eagles.
In the paper there was a recent article. They are shutting down half of them for the winter because there is less wind then and they don't generate as much power anyway.
It turns out there is a nesting grounds very close by, and migratory birds fly over the same pass in the hills.
The number of birds killed is over 4000 per year, including hawks and Golden Eagles.
So does that translate to about one bird per windmill per month on a migratory route? That's not many but it seems higher than the figures I've heard. (which are not particular to your area mind you)
Do they release any figures about how many birds die of other manmade causes in the immediate area? By that I mean powerlines, fences, windows, urban hunters and W.H.Y.
I feel the anti side tends to overlook the other manmade causes of bird death in the area and focuses on the windmills a liitle much.
Do they release any figures about how many birds die of other manmade causes in the immediate area? By that I mean powerlines, fences, windows, urban hunters and W.H.Y.
I feel the anti side tends to overlook the other manmade causes of bird death in the area and focuses on the windmills a liitle much.
The real problem is the limited number of available sites and the required area to generate sufficient power. The numbers just don't work except as a niche. The white color is actually functional.
There's lots of birds in this world and I think my wife has eaten most of them, ground into nuggets and deep-fried. That's a poor reason for dissing windmills, especially when there are so many good reasons.
There's lots of birds in this world and I think my wife has eaten most of them, ground into nuggets and deep-fried. That's a poor reason for dissing windmills, especially when there are so many good reasons.
Cal Weldon said:
To generate any significant amounts of power you need lots & lots of them so they take up lots & lots of real estate.
I'd think best suited for local power generation -- ie a windmill for a remote house.
dave
Cal Weldon said:
Like a house on Lesquiti island where they have no power distribution at all (everyone is off the grid).
If i had steady wind here i'd be a good candidate. What i'd really like would be the "as yet to be developed" small fusion packs -- plug them in as needed like lightbulbs. When used up return for recycling/refurb.
dave
The problem with the windmill location here is that they are in a low point in the hills that funnels the wind, Sadly the birds traditionally migrate through the pass because it is the easiest way to go, and the wind pushes them along. The eagles have a nesting site nearby because they like to soar in the winds.
The golden eagle is a very rare bird (and very large)
How many of t he birds are common house sparrows and how many are eagles is of course not mentioned!
My main objection is the implication that the dead birds are being killed because they are defective, that's just not the case. By that argument all eagles are defective in that the human population is taking over their habitat "and they just don't adapt" I guess they should get desk jobs or something...
In some ways this is a win/win situation in that the birds migrate in the fall, you can't average it over the yaer, and the winds actually are a lot lower in the fall here so the generators aren't losing that much.
Mainly I agree with others that have mentioned that they just can't produce enough to be a pricipa source of power because the sites that they really work at are quite limited..
The golden eagle is a very rare bird (and very large)
How many of t he birds are common house sparrows and how many are eagles is of course not mentioned!
My main objection is the implication that the dead birds are being killed because they are defective, that's just not the case. By that argument all eagles are defective in that the human population is taking over their habitat "and they just don't adapt" I guess they should get desk jobs or something...
In some ways this is a win/win situation in that the birds migrate in the fall, you can't average it over the yaer, and the winds actually are a lot lower in the fall here so the generators aren't losing that much.
Mainly I agree with others that have mentioned that they just can't produce enough to be a pricipa source of power because the sites that they really work at are quite limited..
Well, I'd like to hear some scientifically correct reasons. I met a guy a few months ago who was very opposed to windmills, but was unable to give a good reason apart from the tremendous cost (2 million Euro a piece, he said) and the huge maintenance costs(?). That was about it. Frankly, I have no idea of their efficiency.SY said:
/Hugo
It's really just what I said- there are limited places to site them (there just aren't many coastal mountain passes, which is what's needed to get enough air current) and they just don't produce all that much when averaged over time (some days are windier than others).
Something that requires billions of dollars, millions of hectares, and can only supply a few percent of energy needs doesn't seem particularly attractive. They would be a total non-starter here if not for the subsidies. If you have to subsidize something, that's a clue to its efficiency.
Something that requires billions of dollars, millions of hectares, and can only supply a few percent of energy needs doesn't seem particularly attractive. They would be a total non-starter here if not for the subsidies. If you have to subsidize something, that's a clue to its efficiency.
the maintenance isn't that big of a deal, on the new Euron / GE windturbines for example. They are good for 5 years, and you can buy services to go with them.
The issue is very much like standing up on a stadium: when one person does it, it is no problem. When everyone does it, it becoems a huge problem.
those Windmills are ugly as hell to look at, they disrupt the flow of wind (duh!), and if you let it litter up the land, it would be sure causing problems for animals (the blads generate subsonic sound pollution and the turbines ultrasonic sound pollution).
this is kind of like solar power: there are clearly places for them, but using them as your primary source of energy kind of defects the purpose of having energy in the first place.
The issue is very much like standing up on a stadium: when one person does it, it is no problem. When everyone does it, it becoems a huge problem.
those Windmills are ugly as hell to look at, they disrupt the flow of wind (duh!), and if you let it litter up the land, it would be sure causing problems for animals (the blads generate subsonic sound pollution and the turbines ultrasonic sound pollution).
this is kind of like solar power: there are clearly places for them, but using them as your primary source of energy kind of defects the purpose of having energy in the first place.
SY said:
All of Europe subsidises its trains, but the UK doesn't any more. Compare the train services...
Sometimes there may not be a straightforward accounting reason to do something but it's just something that should be done. Once upon a time, we had a nationalised Post Office. It didn't make a profit, but it did something that needed to be done and was clearly for the greater good. We privatised it and now it's going down the tubes.
I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case with wind farms, but sometimes you have to do something just because it's the right thing to do.
The UK, being a tiny island, apparently doesn't need fast trains. Or so it seemed my last time there. Actually, the train service was quite good, albeit a bit pokey. But only a bit- I made it from Winchester to Stansted in less time than the express bus from Heathrow to Stansted.
Our trains are also subsidized and are amazingly wretched. To drive from San Francisco to LA takes about 6 hours. By train, it's 9 hours or more, they are 100% never on time, and there's only one train per day in each direction. On the bright side, the train is also more expensive than flying and much more expensive than driving.
Our trains are also subsidized and are amazingly wretched. To drive from San Francisco to LA takes about 6 hours. By train, it's 9 hours or more, they are 100% never on time, and there's only one train per day in each direction. On the bright side, the train is also more expensive than flying and much more expensive than driving.
Hmmm...not sure about the limited place. Due to their height they seem to catch enough wind, even here in the city. Two years or so ago, Belgium planned to install a windmill park in the North see.
A bitchy old lady succeeded in convincing the court that her nice view over the sea would be spoiled. Out were the mills.
Cost and efficiency is a different matter. I hope Google will be my friend to find some decent numbers to compare with other energy resources.
/Hugo
A bitchy old lady succeeded in convincing the court that her nice view over the sea would be spoiled. Out were the mills.
Cost and efficiency is a different matter. I hope Google will be my friend to find some decent numbers to compare with other energy resources.
/Hugo
Netlist said:
This is exactly why the project will never work in America. All it takes is one person to pitch a fit over something that offends them, and only them, and our lawyers work tirelessly to see they get their way.
Windfarms look kinda neat to me, but to look at a horizon littered with them only to realize how little energy they are actually producing is a turnoff. It would take ~740 of those giant 3MW windmills to equal the power output of our plant. That's just not feasible.
SY said:
We have fast trains. We have very fast trains. TGV-speed fast trains. Unfortunately, we don't have fast track. Or the signalling and safety systems associated with fast track.
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