vented 2 way driver selection..
2 subs, vented mivic awx184.. tuned around 32hz .. Qts 0.36.. 230liter f3 30hz..
for the tops I was thinking Faital hf10ak and a horn similar to 18 sound xr1064..
and LF something like 18sound 12w750, qts =0.37 in 8ohms and 0.29 in 4 ohms
crossover sub top around 80hz, tops passive.. and then integrate the subs passive or active to the tops.. any thoughts?
2 subs, vented mivic awx184.. tuned around 32hz .. Qts 0.36.. 230liter f3 30hz..
for the tops I was thinking Faital hf10ak and a horn similar to 18 sound xr1064..
and LF something like 18sound 12w750, qts =0.37 in 8ohms and 0.29 in 4 ohms
crossover sub top around 80hz, tops passive.. and then integrate the subs passive or active to the tops.. any thoughts?
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For crowds under 200 no reason to have two subs. Causes lobing (missing frequencies) indoors due to interference between the two. Passive sub filter is crazy expensive. 4 ohm at 62 hz is 640 uf. One 200 uf polyprophylene capacitor is $73 today, and you need 6 for two channels plus a stereo amp. Electrolytic capacitors, nobody sells bipolar in 3000 hours service life, which means replacing every 6 or 12 years. One sub means you need only one mono amp. M8150T are about $50 on the used market.
Best to pick up a used sub crossover appliance for <$100. Merges the two channels into 1 for the sub, and provides infrasonic filter for the two tops to prevent woofer damage from footsteps on bouncy floors. Crossover frequency is a knob. Nady, Rane, Peavey make them. My Nady cx-22sw crossover was $50.
Two way tops, cheapest way to get good ones is buy some blown ones at the pawn shop and replace a driver or two. No sawdust in your workshop, no fiddly round stepped holes to cut or worse, braces. No paint or varnish. Look at all the carpentry in Asathor https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367215-asathor-jbl-4367-clone.html?highlight=asathor
More to the point is econowave https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/econowave-style-15.400662/
I like Peavey SP5, the drivers are still in production to get matching ones. I own Peavey SP2(2004) which is +- 3 db 54 hz to 17 khz. With only 12 db down at 40 hz, backing mine up to a hard plaster wall, the 6 db room gain means I don't need to run a sub amp 14 hours a day. The downside of 15" woofer in the SP2, putting 71 lb 2 m high on poles is beyond my ability at my age and size.
Don't be tempted by used active speakers, the power supplies are designed to blow up in 5 years. Generally unrepairable by amateurs.
Best to pick up a used sub crossover appliance for <$100. Merges the two channels into 1 for the sub, and provides infrasonic filter for the two tops to prevent woofer damage from footsteps on bouncy floors. Crossover frequency is a knob. Nady, Rane, Peavey make them. My Nady cx-22sw crossover was $50.
Two way tops, cheapest way to get good ones is buy some blown ones at the pawn shop and replace a driver or two. No sawdust in your workshop, no fiddly round stepped holes to cut or worse, braces. No paint or varnish. Look at all the carpentry in Asathor https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367215-asathor-jbl-4367-clone.html?highlight=asathor
More to the point is econowave https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/econowave-style-15.400662/
I like Peavey SP5, the drivers are still in production to get matching ones. I own Peavey SP2(2004) which is +- 3 db 54 hz to 17 khz. With only 12 db down at 40 hz, backing mine up to a hard plaster wall, the 6 db room gain means I don't need to run a sub amp 14 hours a day. The downside of 15" woofer in the SP2, putting 71 lb 2 m high on poles is beyond my ability at my age and size.
Don't be tempted by used active speakers, the power supplies are designed to blow up in 5 years. Generally unrepairable by amateurs.
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A listening bar with dancing.. probably never more than 120db.. max 150 people.. mostly deep house, deep techno, some dnb and chillout.. dj rig.. a mix of analog and digital sources.. class ab or h amplification.. don’t have venue yet.. but looking for something with higher ceiling or semi outdoors(courtyard).. below is the subs I built
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Here from the eminence Lab15 cabinet design document are 115 to 118 db from Large vented deep bass box page 10 to 20 hz and 120 db from small vented box page 13 to 40 hz. Both at 600 watts, both require high pass filter as described in the document to avoid excessive excursion. See Eminence.com
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For that size of bar you probally want to play in mono (stereo image will be messed up anyway) and use several smaller speakers spread all over the place.
But to answer your question, you need a midbass woofer that covers the 2kHz to 80Hz range at the volume you need with that HF10K tweeter. That is a hard one, i would change the driver to a tweeter that can be cut lower (1500Hz is good enough) because that makes the choice of woofer a lot easier.
And for bass you will need at least double 18" to get the low bass you may need in such a setting for that kind of music. Soundsystems that play that kind of music must be a lot more capable in the bass frequencies to get the bass feel that the dancing crowd wants. There is a reason why big basshorns or scoops are still very popular for dance music, and why tapped horn and tranflex is rated over the much more neutral sounding reflexes or sealed cabinets. Bass is what moves people, not treble.
You basicly want a hifi version of a small club system. I would build 4 tops and 4 subs spread over the room for such a settng, play them max half power (to keep headroom) and eq and time/phase align them with a good dsp to get a more neutral sound. That is very often key in having a good club sound, Build the system way to powerfull and play at half or less power to reduce distortion and amp pumping. I worked in pro audio for years and this was one of the tricks that made the difference. And placement and alignment in time and phase are also crucial, much more crucial than this or that expensive compression driver in the chain.
btw, i did build a small party setup for a garden/small venue setting, but there we only aim at 110dB at 30Hz and i still need 2x12" MLTL type bass cabinets to do that. For 120dB you will need at least 2x18" woofers and better would be 4x18" woofers.
For DnB you want the bass to go to the low 30's, because their basslines go that low. Techno and house are a little bit less demanding, but still 40Hz is absolute minimum (and most clubs have systems that go lower.). There is no need to go below 30hz altough, as club music is still partly vinyl oriented, and their physical low limit (in reality 30Hz) is still the standard.
I think a BMS 4540 or a Faital HF-108 would be better here, because you can cut them lower while still keeping a relative good high response (certainly with dsp eq) at high volume, and cut it to a Faital HF 12FH500 midwoofer at about 1500Hz and a pair of 18" subwoofers doing the work at about 85-100Hz, preferable tapped horn or so. Do crossover as much as possible with dsp as passive filters on this volume get big, expensive and very hard to do right. Drivers could change off course, but this kind of division between tweeters and midbass works a lot better than higher up. If you insist on using that Faital HF10K tweeter, better go 4 way with a mid driver, a bass driver and a sub driver to support it and cross the tweeter above 2kHz at least.
But to answer your question, you need a midbass woofer that covers the 2kHz to 80Hz range at the volume you need with that HF10K tweeter. That is a hard one, i would change the driver to a tweeter that can be cut lower (1500Hz is good enough) because that makes the choice of woofer a lot easier.
And for bass you will need at least double 18" to get the low bass you may need in such a setting for that kind of music. Soundsystems that play that kind of music must be a lot more capable in the bass frequencies to get the bass feel that the dancing crowd wants. There is a reason why big basshorns or scoops are still very popular for dance music, and why tapped horn and tranflex is rated over the much more neutral sounding reflexes or sealed cabinets. Bass is what moves people, not treble.
You basicly want a hifi version of a small club system. I would build 4 tops and 4 subs spread over the room for such a settng, play them max half power (to keep headroom) and eq and time/phase align them with a good dsp to get a more neutral sound. That is very often key in having a good club sound, Build the system way to powerfull and play at half or less power to reduce distortion and amp pumping. I worked in pro audio for years and this was one of the tricks that made the difference. And placement and alignment in time and phase are also crucial, much more crucial than this or that expensive compression driver in the chain.
btw, i did build a small party setup for a garden/small venue setting, but there we only aim at 110dB at 30Hz and i still need 2x12" MLTL type bass cabinets to do that. For 120dB you will need at least 2x18" woofers and better would be 4x18" woofers.
For DnB you want the bass to go to the low 30's, because their basslines go that low. Techno and house are a little bit less demanding, but still 40Hz is absolute minimum (and most clubs have systems that go lower.). There is no need to go below 30hz altough, as club music is still partly vinyl oriented, and their physical low limit (in reality 30Hz) is still the standard.
I think a BMS 4540 or a Faital HF-108 would be better here, because you can cut them lower while still keeping a relative good high response (certainly with dsp eq) at high volume, and cut it to a Faital HF 12FH500 midwoofer at about 1500Hz and a pair of 18" subwoofers doing the work at about 85-100Hz, preferable tapped horn or so. Do crossover as much as possible with dsp as passive filters on this volume get big, expensive and very hard to do right. Drivers could change off course, but this kind of division between tweeters and midbass works a lot better than higher up. If you insist on using that Faital HF10K tweeter, better go 4 way with a mid driver, a bass driver and a sub driver to support it and cross the tweeter above 2kHz at least.
maybe 110db is enough.. I think it might be.. I already built the subs.. 2 of these..
when I simulated them it showed 125db max output..I don't really know what that means, I don't have a db meter.. they do have a really nice kick to them and go deep when needed.. more a hifi type sound, a very tall kind of sound..
as for the tops.. the hf108 seems good.. I would like to go with a ferrite woofer though.. I was looking at 18sound design https://www.eighteensound.it/media/...dfNzcxXzE4X1NvdW5kXzEyXzJfV2F5c192MS5wZGYiXV0.. in my ignorance I was thinking of using the 18sound 12w750 and copy the box and just use the hf108 on top.. what horn would you use for the hf108? xr1064? .. do you know of another ferrite woofer that would mate well with the hf108?.. I would like to at least try to design a passive crossover for the tops.. even though I might end up going active in the end..
as for the tops.. the hf108 seems good.. I would like to go with a ferrite woofer though.. I was looking at 18sound design https://www.eighteensound.it/media/...dfNzcxXzE4X1NvdW5kXzEyXzJfV2F5c192MS5wZGYiXV0.. in my ignorance I was thinking of using the 18sound 12w750 and copy the box and just use the hf108 on top.. what horn would you use for the hf108? xr1064? .. do you know of another ferrite woofer that would mate well with the hf108?.. I would like to at least try to design a passive crossover for the tops.. even though I might end up going active in the end..
you can't just swap a compression driver to another without redoing the crossover. That box is quiet ok doing as it is so i would not necesairy change something. It's not how i would do it, but it's a proven design that sound very good.
If you change the compression driver to a HF108, you need to redesign the crossover totally as they won't fit. The woofer could fit the 108, and so does the horn and cabinet. If you want that with the HF108, use a dsp to do the crossover.
Btw, that article about the sub i can't read (i can't speak german) but it looks like a car subwoofer in a cabinet with too small ports for high power subwoofers. What driver is that?
If you change the compression driver to a HF108, you need to redesign the crossover totally as they won't fit. The woofer could fit the 108, and so does the horn and cabinet. If you want that with the HF108, use a dsp to do the crossover.
Btw, that article about the sub i can't read (i can't speak german) but it looks like a car subwoofer in a cabinet with too small ports for high power subwoofers. What driver is that?
I would, of course, redesign the crossover If I were to use the box.
As for the sub driver, it's a Mivoc awx184 mk2.. 600w..
How would you design the box and what ferrite driver would you use? as for the horn, some dude here on the forum said the xt1086 drops off of axis quite quickly and to get better dispersion you should look something like 18sound xr1064..
As for the sub driver, it's a Mivoc awx184 mk2.. 600w..
How would you design the box and what ferrite driver would you use? as for the horn, some dude here on the forum said the xt1086 drops off of axis quite quickly and to get better dispersion you should look something like 18sound xr1064..
I don't think that the XR1064 is better, it's not constant directive and more uneven than the XT1086. Look at the graphs at the website of 18Sound (they are confirmed by independent tests) to see how they react. The XT1086 is a well known and proven horn, especially with 18Sound drivers and it's one of the most controlled horns that is easely availeble.
And that Mivoc goes low enough, but not loud enough for a place of 120-150 people. In reality the box can handle 300w before running out of xmax when tuned low. You will always have to run it very hard to get the bass needed for such a space, with a very distorted bass as result. The box is also from what i can see not build for more than 200w or so. Ports are to small to keep the airspeed low enough to avoid winnoises (coughing) from it. Tuning looks right for lower power, but for your dj system this won't be enough at all.
I would not bother to rebuild those, but build high power subwoofers like there are many documented here on the forum. A TH15 or TH18 or a Keystone subwoofer are way better id's. But it's maybe better that you hear it first, build those tops and test it out with those Mivoc subs in a space like you want to use, and you will see those are not enough.
The 18Sound tops are enough, and they also got (well studied) plans of subs on their homepage if you want to proceed with their drivers. This design is very similar like your subs, but with way bigger ports, and the box can go loud enough for your purpose. If you build new subs, this could fit your purpose: https://www.eighteensound.it/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMjMvMDcvMTcvMTRfMDVfNTlfMzA3XzE4U3ViX3YxXzEucGRmIl1d
And that Mivoc goes low enough, but not loud enough for a place of 120-150 people. In reality the box can handle 300w before running out of xmax when tuned low. You will always have to run it very hard to get the bass needed for such a space, with a very distorted bass as result. The box is also from what i can see not build for more than 200w or so. Ports are to small to keep the airspeed low enough to avoid winnoises (coughing) from it. Tuning looks right for lower power, but for your dj system this won't be enough at all.
I would not bother to rebuild those, but build high power subwoofers like there are many documented here on the forum. A TH15 or TH18 or a Keystone subwoofer are way better id's. But it's maybe better that you hear it first, build those tops and test it out with those Mivoc subs in a space like you want to use, and you will see those are not enough.
The 18Sound tops are enough, and they also got (well studied) plans of subs on their homepage if you want to proceed with their drivers. This design is very similar like your subs, but with way bigger ports, and the box can go loud enough for your purpose. If you build new subs, this could fit your purpose: https://www.eighteensound.it/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMjMvMDcvMTcvMTRfMDVfNTlfMzA3XzE4U3ViX3YxXzEucGRmIl1d