Component leads
It appears that all the components have their leads soldered under the board. When I remove them, I will better see what has to be done.
Thanks for the insight,
Joemusic
It appears that all the components have their leads soldered under the board. When I remove them, I will better see what has to be done.
Thanks for the insight,
Joemusic
Removing components
The leads 'are' soldered to the traces and cutting the solder on either side of the leads made it much easier to remove the components.
I will have to replace a damaged tweeter. Luckily they were made by VIFA. The only one that will fit has the same size dome except it is a poly dome and not an aluminum dome. I am hoping that the dome material difference will not produce a different sound.
Joemusic
The leads 'are' soldered to the traces and cutting the solder on either side of the leads made it much easier to remove the components.
I will have to replace a damaged tweeter. Luckily they were made by VIFA. The only one that will fit has the same size dome except it is a poly dome and not an aluminum dome. I am hoping that the dome material difference will not produce a different sound.
Joemusic
You're joking, right? It will make a huge difference! If you insist on replacing a metal dome with a poly dome, at least replace the one in the other speaker with an identical unit. The fact that you decided to try to match an existing tweeter with a new one using brand name and hole size as your criteria boggles my mind.
I'm sorry, but I'm starting to think this thread is an elaborate hoax designed to make the people trying to help you pull their hair out in exasperation.
This is a 'DIY' board, isn't it?
Audiomagnate-
This is the diyAudio board, isn't it?. I had hoped that by joining this site it would allow me the ability to have more knowledgeable members guide me to be able to repair my speakers. I am a novice at this and will make mistakes in what I do and what I plan to do. My questions, observations, suggestions and solutions are being put on here so that I can get opinions not criticisms and snide comments.
Joemusic
Audiomagnate-
This is the diyAudio board, isn't it?. I had hoped that by joining this site it would allow me the ability to have more knowledgeable members guide me to be able to repair my speakers. I am a novice at this and will make mistakes in what I do and what I plan to do. My questions, observations, suggestions and solutions are being put on here so that I can get opinions not criticisms and snide comments.
Joemusic
I asked you a while back about the driver compliment:
"Do yours have the 1" Audax tweeter, the Peerless mid with the plastic cone and surround made of the same material, and both woofers with rubber surrounds?"
I thought they went to the Vifa tweeter in the 2Ce and it was .75". Can you tell us any numbers at all that are on the tweeters?
Is it the old D25AG-35 with the chambered back:
http://www.audioalchemy.ro/difuzoare/vifa/D25AG35B.jpg
Speakers on board
The tweeter is a VIFA D19AD-05, the mids are still installed in the cabinet and the woofer is a Vandersteen 8P2C. The tweeter has a 3/4" Aluminum Dome.
From what I understand the speaker was introduced as a 2C, then upgraded to a 2Ci with woofer, mid range driver and crossover improvements. Now it is the 2Ce.
Joemusic
The tweeter is a VIFA D19AD-05, the mids are still installed in the cabinet and the woofer is a Vandersteen 8P2C. The tweeter has a 3/4" Aluminum Dome.
From what I understand the speaker was introduced as a 2C, then upgraded to a 2Ci with woofer, mid range driver and crossover improvements. Now it is the 2Ce.
Joemusic
I thought that the 3/4" metal dome was only in the 2Ce, but it is possible that late production 2Ci's had it. Yours is a 2Ci with this tweeter?
I also believe that they moved to the 1" or their version of the 1" D25AG35, probably because a .75" tweeter is not a good choice with 1st order crossovers.
I would try to find a used .75" aluminum dome Vifa you can swap the domes from a doner if you want to keep them stock. You might also want to check with Vandersteen to see if they consider the 1" to be an upgrade - then move to those if you prefer.
You can check with the various suppliers for old stock of dome/VC replacements.
I also believe that they moved to the 1" or their version of the 1" D25AG35, probably because a .75" tweeter is not a good choice with 1st order crossovers.
I would try to find a used .75" aluminum dome Vifa you can swap the domes from a doner if you want to keep them stock. You might also want to check with Vandersteen to see if they consider the 1" to be an upgrade - then move to those if you prefer.
You can check with the various suppliers for old stock of dome/VC replacements.
But whatever you do, make sure that both (left and right) speakers are identical.
I have a pair of 2Ce (plus an orphaned one), and they are truly excellent speakers.
I have a pair of 2Ce (plus an orphaned one), and they are truly excellent speakers.
Speaker substitution
I have decided to replace both tweeters with a VIFA 1" textile dome that will fit in the present location. There should be 3/16" of solid support between the present hole and the outside diameter of this speaker. The only difference is that the original one was 6 ohm and the new ones will be 4 ohm. I will have to adjust for that on the crossover.
Joemusic
I have decided to replace both tweeters with a VIFA 1" textile dome that will fit in the present location. There should be 3/16" of solid support between the present hole and the outside diameter of this speaker. The only difference is that the original one was 6 ohm and the new ones will be 4 ohm. I will have to adjust for that on the crossover.
Joemusic
Argh. I would ask for opinions, first. I'm not an expert. But these speakers are "time aligned", which is probably what makes them so magical. Adjusting the crossover might "let some of the magic out". I don't know that it would. But I would find out before deciding what to do.
Speaker location
The time alignment has to do with the physical location of the speakers in relation to each other. So that will not change.
I am planning to add bigger components to the crossover and so they will go farther out into the cabinet, is there any danger in the bigger Caps touching the cotton like insulation in the speaker.
The time alignment has to do with the physical location of the speakers in relation to each other. So that will not change.
I am planning to add bigger components to the crossover and so they will go farther out into the cabinet, is there any danger in the bigger Caps touching the cotton like insulation in the speaker.
I believe that the crossover circuit and components have much to do with the time alignment. Capacitors and inductors change the phase angles of the signals, in a frequency-dependent way. That directly affects the time alignment.
In my opinion, you should definitely not change the nominal values of the components.
Also note that the parasitics of each component (and even those caused by the layout and the PCB) could also have some similar effects. So even changing the type of a component, but keeping the same rated value, could cause unwanted changes. For example, a good designer might have accounted for, and even used, the ESR and ESL (resistance and inductance) of the capacitors, and the resistances of the coils. You can search for my posts about MG-12 crossovers. I did some simulations and noted the differences that might occur when changing from iron core to air core coils, with the same nominal inductance value but lower DC Resistance. I might also have looked at changing an electrolytic to a film cap, with the resulting dramatically lower ESR. Passive crossovers are relatively easy to model and simulate, in LT-Spice.
In my opinion, you should definitely not change the nominal values of the components.
Also note that the parasitics of each component (and even those caused by the layout and the PCB) could also have some similar effects. So even changing the type of a component, but keeping the same rated value, could cause unwanted changes. For example, a good designer might have accounted for, and even used, the ESR and ESL (resistance and inductance) of the capacitors, and the resistances of the coils. You can search for my posts about MG-12 crossovers. I did some simulations and noted the differences that might occur when changing from iron core to air core coils, with the same nominal inductance value but lower DC Resistance. I might also have looked at changing an electrolytic to a film cap, with the resulting dramatically lower ESR. Passive crossovers are relatively easy to model and simulate, in LT-Spice.
Component not needed
I found some info about the part and it can be eliminated without any consequences.
joemusic.
I found some info about the part and it can be eliminated without any consequences.
joemusic.
PCB board
I am beginning to design the PCB board for the crossover and need to know how much amperage do I need to allow for in the traces? It is a pretty simple design: but, I want to be sure that I can supply enough signal strength.
I am beginning to design the PCB board for the crossover and need to know how much amperage do I need to allow for in the traces? It is a pretty simple design: but, I want to be sure that I can supply enough signal strength.
Power = i squared times R
so
i (RMS) = sqrt (P_rms/R)
If you figure 250 Watts and 8 Ohms, then the RMS current would be 5.6 Amps, for example.
Wider traces will have lower inductance. So it probably wouldn't hurt to make them as wide as you can.
You can also look at the ones on the original board and make them at least that wide.
Why are you not just using the original PCB layout?
so
i (RMS) = sqrt (P_rms/R)
If you figure 250 Watts and 8 Ohms, then the RMS current would be 5.6 Amps, for example.
Wider traces will have lower inductance. So it probably wouldn't hurt to make them as wide as you can.
You can also look at the ones on the original board and make them at least that wide.
Why are you not just using the original PCB layout?
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So you think they put it in there for no reason? Doubtful. It will limit inrush current, and will also have a small resistance after it gets warm.
Component size and PCB board.
I am taking the original schematic and adding better grade components which make for a larger area needed for the crossover. So I am placing the new crossover in a enclosure on the back of the speaker and just running wires to the drivers. I will have to wire in the pots also due to their placement in the enclosure. I am just making the PCB board simpler since only a few component will need to be actually on the board.
Joe
I am taking the original schematic and adding better grade components which make for a larger area needed for the crossover. So I am placing the new crossover in a enclosure on the back of the speaker and just running wires to the drivers. I will have to wire in the pots also due to their placement in the enclosure. I am just making the PCB board simpler since only a few component will need to be actually on the board.
Joe
Changing components to what you think are better is not what you want to do here.
This is a speaker with a long history and has been honed through many thousands of units being sold and dealers giving feedback over many years etc.
They were made to a resonable price point and work as a whole.
If upgrading is your thing, you would be better to jump up to the 3 series and Sell it to a bone yard.
Getting it "cheap" really means the best and cheapest way to maximise what you have is to send it to Richard and let him make it "whole" again.
There,s simply no way you can do better than its Maker can, only alter its intended time alignment for worse
Regards
David
This is a speaker with a long history and has been honed through many thousands of units being sold and dealers giving feedback over many years etc.
They were made to a resonable price point and work as a whole.
If upgrading is your thing, you would be better to jump up to the 3 series and Sell it to a bone yard.
Getting it "cheap" really means the best and cheapest way to maximise what you have is to send it to Richard and let him make it "whole" again.
There,s simply no way you can do better than its Maker can, only alter its intended time alignment for worse
Regards
David
New speakers
Avwerk,
You are totally correct in saying that Mr. Vandersteen is a speaker genius. I already have a pair of 3A Sigs which are the upgraded 3As. Maybe, I have been wrong in calling the speakers that I am rebuilding Vandersteens. I purchased the 2Ci s, damaged at a very reduced price. What I am doing is rebuilding a three way speaker. Since the drivers in the speakers have VIFA model stickers on them, I will be using the present equivalent of the original drivers and replacing them as pairs. I will be using Vandersteen's cases and rebuilding its crossovers to follow the Vandersteen schematic, but with newer parts. So, I guess, I should be calling them " Joe's speakers" .
Avwerk,
You are totally correct in saying that Mr. Vandersteen is a speaker genius. I already have a pair of 3A Sigs which are the upgraded 3As. Maybe, I have been wrong in calling the speakers that I am rebuilding Vandersteens. I purchased the 2Ci s, damaged at a very reduced price. What I am doing is rebuilding a three way speaker. Since the drivers in the speakers have VIFA model stickers on them, I will be using the present equivalent of the original drivers and replacing them as pairs. I will be using Vandersteen's cases and rebuilding its crossovers to follow the Vandersteen schematic, but with newer parts. So, I guess, I should be calling them " Joe's speakers" .
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