Vandersteen 2Ci crossover repair

[joemusic]

Hi there,
I am new to this forum and need some help in fixing the crossovers on my Vandy 2Ci speakers. They were fried by a surge from an amp before I got them. Got them cheap.
I have remover the back plate and the woofer to expose the crossover and can see a few burnt resistors. My concern is the 'mylar looking tape' that covers the leads on the back of the board. How do I remove it? Are the leads soldered to the back of the board. I think that, if I can remove it, I can do all the work with the Xover in place.
Thanks for any help,
Joe

 

[Mooly]

A picture would help. Plastic tape should be easy to cut/remove.

I would advise maybe taking pictures for your own reference too... in case you end up with a few wires and not sure where they live.

 

[Badge]

You also should take a multi meter and check if the voice coil on each speaker is OK. Set to OHMs and you should see a RE value between 4-8 ohms. no reading means they are damaged.

 

[joemusic]

Here is a photo.

 

[DavidL]

Looks like that "tape" is being used to route electrical signals through out the crossover. Your best bet is to remove the crossover so you can comfortably work on it on your table.

EDIT: It's just the traces on the back of the circuit board, DON'T remove any of that.

 

[Mooly]

Looks like hot melt glue securing the PCB so it should break free pretty easily. It all needs cleaning up and washing.

 

[joemusic]

I have the schematic for the bass; but, does anyone have a schematic for the tweeter and midrange crossover. I will remove more of the components today. I plan to replace some of the foil strips with wire where ever I am needing to work.
Thanks,
Joemusic

 

[joemusic]

I have removed the burnt resistors from both speakers. I found that some were still readable with my meter. They are in bunches. From the bunch of three resistors, some where dead; but, I was able to read 7.9 Ohms, 8.1 Ohms, 5.9 Ohms and 6.5 Ohms. There is also a pair that 4.8 Mohms and 5.5 Mohms. In one previous thread where they replaced the resistors in a 2CE , later model, they used 10 Ohm resistors. From the physical size they appear to be 1Watt .

 

[gootee]

Why not just contact Vandersteen? I left a message on their customer service thing, a couple of years ago, and Richard Vandersteen himself called me, about 30 minutes later. He was very helpful. I can't quite remember now if I telephoned and left a message or if it was a place to enter a text message on their website. Whatever it was is on their website, maybe in the technical support section.

 

[joemusic]

I contacted Vandersteen and spoke to Richard. He was curt and not at all helpful. He wants the speakers returned to them for service, no exceptions. So, that is why I am pursuing this path. The crossover is very visible inside the case. It is a tight fit; but, I have been able to remove all the burnt resistors. I tested them and found that some were gone; but, a few were still readable. So I am going to use those values to order new ones. I biggest challenge is that they have used some sort of conductive foil tape as the traces and some really high melt-point solder to attach them. I plan to use wire, where I can, to make the circuits. I am hoping that a few members of this site are familiar with rebuilding crossover and can point me in the right direction.
Joemusic

 

[gootee]

Interesting tidbit (From the Vandersteen "FAQ" page: )

--------------------------
Steve (4/5/07): Hi, we are fixing a pair of Vandersteen Model 2 speakers for a customers but the cross-overs are completely missing. Can you supply a schematic? Thanks.

Answer: HELLO STEVE, I AM SORRY WE DO NOT HAVE SPARE CIRCUIT BOARDS FOR SUCH AN OLD SPEAKER, ONLY THE PARTS TO REPAIR THEM. WHEN A X-OVER IS BURNED TO THE POINT THAT THE RESISTORS CAN NOT BE READ THE ONLY WAY TO REPAIR THEM IS TO PUT THE SPEAKER WITH ITS X-OVER IN THE ANECHOIC CHAMBER AND INSTALL THE VALUES NEEDED TO GET THE RESPONSE CORRECT. THIS IS HOW THEY WERE MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. WITHOUT X-OVERS THIS WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO, MAYBE THE CUSTOMER CAN LOCATE THE X-OVERS.
------------------

At least you have what's left of the circuit board.

If you can trace the connections and draw out a schematic, indicating where there were resistors that you cannot measure, maybe someone could help.

Also, note that it is relatively easy to make a new PCB, at home. But you can also do it with wires. You could also make a whole new assembly, either with wires or with a new PCB.

You have two crossover assemblies, right? Have you looked at both of them? Components that are burned on one might be measurable on the other.

Are the 2Ci like the 2Ce, with a "sock" that covers the whole thing, making it look like a box? I have the 2Ce speakers. It is relatively easy to remove the socks and get access. But I have not tried to get to the crossovers and have never even looked for them. Have you tried googling for "Vandersteen 2Ci crossover schematic"?

While you're at it, make sure that any electrolytic capacitors get replaced. What else is in there? Any inductors?

 

[joemusic]

I did find the schematic that had been posted for the 2CE, which is the newer model. That will be helpful in the job. Of the 6 resistors that I removed from the two speakers, I was able to read 7.9, 8.1, 5.9, 6.5 Ohms. The other sets of two each read 4.8 Mohms and 5.5 Mohms. From the physical size I can tell the wattage. The schematic shows that all the resistors are the same size in each group. But, I am still trying to decide.
Joemusic

 

[audiomagnate]

...RESISTORS CAN NOT BE READ THE ONLY WAY TO REPAIR THEM IS TO PUT THE SPEAKER WITH ITS X-OVER IN THE ANECHOIC CHAMBER AND INSTALL THE VALUES NEEDED TO GET THE RESPONSE CORRECT...

COUGH...(bull****)...COUGH.

 

[joemusic]

Slowly gathering more info.

The speakers do have a 'sock' over them and the previous owner's cat thought that they were scratching posts, so I just cut away any that was in my way.
I did find a few of the burnt resistors that I was able to read their values. They are not all the same; but, enough for a good idea of what to use. The rest of the components look really good. I plan to test as much of them as I can before my next step. My only concern is that the speakers are equipped with Wonder Caps and the burnt resistors were directly below them. The outside cover is slightly scorched and I may need to replace them.
Back to gathering info on the crossovers.
Joemusic

 

[joemusic]

I did it. Removed the crossover from the case.

The crossover is attached to the case with four screws and a large amount of silicone. I noticed that the crossover board was not sitting directly on the board; but, had a space behind it. I just kept prying and cutting until it broke loose. They placed the components on the face of the board, fed the leads through to the back and just bent the leads over. They established a circuit by placing a piece of aluminum backed copper foil over the leads in the pattern that was needed and then applied a clear sealer over the whole thing. No wiring necessary. I will be able to create a schematic of the whole crossover and then repair this one. When that is done I can put it on here for all the DIYers.
Joemusic

 

[PB2]

I reverse engineered the 2Ci many years ago. I traced out the schematic and measured things as best as I could. I measured each sections transfer function, simulated them loaded by the measured driver impedances so that I could determine component values that I could not isolate.

Do yours have the 1" Audax tweeter, the Peerless mid with the plastic cone and surround made of the same material, and both woofers with rubber surrounds?

There were changes in production as time went on with some models, not sure about the 2Ci.

Be sure to mark driver polarity as you take out the drivers.

Have you measured the DC resistance of the drivers to find out at least if the voice coils are in reasonable shape?

It is good that you got one crossover out, but you might not have to remove the other one. Do you think there is a risk of cracking the board if the glue has a better grip on it?

By the way, it is a decent sounding speaker but I was not at all impressed with the crossover design or the acoustic coupler concept.

I will try to find the crossover schematic if you need it.

 

[gootee]

Originally Posted by gootee
...RESISTORS CAN NOT BE READ THE ONLY WAY TO REPAIR THEM IS TO PUT THE SPEAKER WITH ITS X-OVER IN THE ANECHOIC CHAMBER AND INSTALL THE VALUES NEEDED TO GET THE RESPONSE CORRECT...

COUGH...(bull****)...COUGH.

I hear ya. But I was only QUOTING directly from the Vandersteen FAQ page. Maybe because I am in a rather-foul mood today (my apologies), I will say that I was a little dismayed that your post made it look like _I_ said that. However, I also have no reason to believe that Vandersteen would lie. When I talked to Richard Vandersteen about my 2Ce speaker that was catastrophically structurally damaged during shipping, by UPS, he offered the option of sending it to Vandersteen for a complete rebuild-as-necessary for $250, and the main other thing he mentioned was putting it in the anechoic chamber and making whatever adjustments were needed until it had the correct response.

Unfortunately, UPS came to inspect the speaker for damage, said they needed to take it to the depot and would return it within a few days, and instead shipped it back to the point of origin without notifying me. The seller had insured the two speaker boxes separately. My 2Ce speaker was last seen headed for a landfill in Nevada, two days' drive from where I am.

Even horrendously broken, before I lifted the sock to see why it buzzed on one particular bass note in only one song of dozens, its sound was stunningly good. I immediately located another pair, within pickup distance, and bought them.

I do now have one orphan 2Ce speaker. I still grieve for its mate, and kick myself for letting UPS take it.

 

[audiomagnate]

I hear ya. But I was only QUOTING directly from the Vandersteen FAQ page. Maybe because I am in a rather-foul mood today (my apologies), I will say that I was a little dismayed that your post made it look like _I_ said that. However, I also have no reason to believe that Vandersteen would lie. When I talked to Richard Vandersteen about my 2Ce speaker that was catastrophically structurally damaged during shipping, by UPS, he offered the option of sending it to Vandersteen for a complete rebuild-as-necessary for $250, and the main other thing he mentioned was putting it in the anechoic chamber and making whatever adjustments were needed until it had the correct response.

Unfortunately, UPS came to inspect the speaker for damage, said they needed to take it to the depot and would return it within a few days, and instead shipped it back to the point of origin without notifying me. The seller had insured the two speaker boxes separately. My 2Ce speaker was last seen headed for a landfill in Nevada, two days' drive from where I am.

Even horrendously broken, before I lifted the sock to see why it buzzed on one particular bass note in only one song of dozens, its sound was stunningly good. I immediately located another pair, within pickup distance, and bought them.

I do now have one orphan 2Ce speaker. I still grieve for its mate, and kick myself for letting UPS take it.

Not directed at you at all gootee, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I've learned the hard way that any time you hand an item over to a shipper for damage inspection that you can pretty much kiss it goodbye. Orphans make great center channel speakers if that's any consolation.

It looks like the OP will be able to get his crossovers repaired without the use of an anechoic chamber after all. I used to sell the original version of this speaker, and it always amazes me how little they command on the used market. I certainly wouldn't pay $2,400 pair for a new pair (which I've heard at recent RMAFs) but it's kind of shocking that the older versions go unsold in the 3 to $400 range.

 

[joemusic]

Removing components

I checked the drivers in one speaker and found a blown woofer. I did remove the woofer from the other speaker and it was OK. I will continue to test the rest. I plan to add more wire to the drivers since they are so tight right now. I have noted the polarity of each speaker.
I also got a bad 'vibe' from my conversation with Richard Vandersteen. I called service to get some help with the info that I had gathered using the driver test procedure on the Vandy site. He told me to disregard the test, it was an old way of testing if the drivers were blown. When I told him that the speakers that I had bought had gotten a surge from a dying amp. He made it sound like it would be a disaster inside. I needed to send both speaker back to him, since they were the only people who could repair them. That made me want, even more, to fix them myself.
Joemusic

 

[PB2]

I also called and spoke to him and got a strange vibe from him also.
You should change all the electrolytic caps - was that in your plan?
However, I think some of them are premium types. Elna Cerafines if
I remember correctly. What are in yours?
Try to remove them in a non-destructive manner if you do.

Elna caps might have been something like these:
http://www.headfishop.com/elna-capacitors-rbd-470uf-50v-audio-series-bi-polar-capacitors_p853.html