AndrewT said:
I did some measurements. Test were run on a Vifa PL18 (I know, that's not a fullrange). The wire length is 33 feet. I used two twisted pairs for the test - brown and white/brown were negative, green and white/green were positive. These would be for the woofer.
published: QTS-.35 QES-.41 Le-.85mH
short : QTS-.40 QES-.45 Le-.54mH
long : QTS-.38 QES-.43 Le-.62mH
DC resistance for the total round trip is 1 ohm. For what it's worth I measured ~ 1nF capacitance in this length of cable. That was with my Extech DMM and it was the same for a single twisted pair and the dual twisted pairs.
All in all, not too much of a difference.
AndrewT said:
If you are doing a long run, clamp in a vice on one end. For the other end, you will need a round cutout, 8-10 inces should do, drill equally spaced holes around the edge, one for each wire. It then needs to be mounted and able to spin somehow. If another vise available, perfect. Drill a center hole, insert screwdriver, put in vise. Run the wire througn the holes in the round cutout, fold to the back and staple. Now you can just spin it and twist the wire. A bicycle wheel could be used, or many other things. To control the amount of twists per foot, find a piece of hose about the size of all the wires put together. Put it over the wires at the front, oposite of the spinning wheel. You will probably need two people, use the tube as the wheel spins to control where the twists lie.
It's not just the copper but the insulation that requires to be contra rotated.
If you don't it tries to untwist itself.
If you don't it tries to untwist itself.
Hi Mj,
thanks for taking the time to carry out those experiments for us.
Now listen to what effect that extra 30feet makes to the bass response and then tell me it has not affected the ratio of frequencies across the audio band (are the short and long swapped?).
What effect will the extra 1nF have on an amplifier that has a low phase margin, or any phase margin?
thanks for taking the time to carry out those experiments for us.
Now listen to what effect that extra 30feet makes to the bass response and then tell me it has not affected the ratio of frequencies across the audio band (are the short and long swapped?).
What effect will the extra 1nF have on an amplifier that has a low phase margin, or any phase margin?
AndrewT said:
I did the tests to educate myself, just thought I'd share it. 🙂
I will listen to the difference using a larger gauge cable and with a shorter length but I have no choice as to how long these leads need to be.
As for the 1nF on the 33' of cat 5e, with the same meter, I measured .6nF (600pF) on a 10' piece of higher quality 16 AWG speaker wire.
Things need to be kept in perspective.
the right stuff
Trying to find things like magnet wire became a PITA for me
at the local hardware stores.
I went into one of my junk drawers and found what I think is the right stuff. It was solid copper wire -- fine gauge -- that was sold as
speaker wire maybe at Big Lots or some place.
It's shielded and paired.
I don't know how much length I've got for runs but I should be able to manage at least one. The goal is to compare one FE127e with and one without.
So for starters how about one strand? Then a twisted pair?
The shielding should separate easily. It's like regular speaker wire.
Since my connection is a tabbed clip a the receiver, I thought of soldering on a bit of solder wick braid to give the connection some 'bite.'
Trying to find things like magnet wire became a PITA for me
at the local hardware stores.
I went into one of my junk drawers and found what I think is the right stuff. It was solid copper wire -- fine gauge -- that was sold as
speaker wire maybe at Big Lots or some place.
It's shielded and paired.
I don't know how much length I've got for runs but I should be able to manage at least one. The goal is to compare one FE127e with and one without.
So for starters how about one strand? Then a twisted pair?
The shielding should separate easily. It's like regular speaker wire.
Since my connection is a tabbed clip a the receiver, I thought of soldering on a bit of solder wick braid to give the connection some 'bite.'
Re: the right stuff
Have you tried your local radioshack yet? Thats where i got my magnet wire. Not sure if the gauges are thick enough for the job though since the thickest one is only 22 gauge.
Here's how you check to see if it's in stock locally (type your zip in the box): http://www.radioshack.com/product/inStoreAvail.jsp?productId=2036277
Good luck either way
Hey there,loninappleton said:
Have you tried your local radioshack yet? Thats where i got my magnet wire. Not sure if the gauges are thick enough for the job though since the thickest one is only 22 gauge.
Here's how you check to see if it's in stock locally (type your zip in the box): http://www.radioshack.com/product/inStoreAvail.jsp?productId=2036277
Good luck either way
Today I made my hookups with single core 22 gauge solid copper.
Going to do listening tests with the FE127e. I have one rigged up
in the BIB. Other one is regular speaker wire.
What I'm aiming for is to get the high frequencies out the front and the low frequencies out the top.
Other BIB treatment is the 'pennant' made of billiard cloth as suggested by GM.
The ongoing battle is to get speaking voice 'flat' with no boominess.
In construction I do not have any interior wall treatments except some pillow stuffing at the base and a bit in the peak.
Going to do listening tests with the FE127e. I have one rigged up
in the BIB. Other one is regular speaker wire.
What I'm aiming for is to get the high frequencies out the front and the low frequencies out the top.
Other BIB treatment is the 'pennant' made of billiard cloth as suggested by GM.
The ongoing battle is to get speaking voice 'flat' with no boominess.
In construction I do not have any interior wall treatments except some pillow stuffing at the base and a bit in the peak.
to hear skin effect at audio frequencies, you'd need a very long and very thick conductor. even then, it might swamped by other things?
i bought some Audioquest cable with solid conductors and it's like fighting with copperweld wire.
i bought some Audioquest cable with solid conductors and it's like fighting with copperweld wire.
With my new found bass I decided to put EL34 tubes back in. I had liked them in the past but the lack of bass compared to KT88 tubes was not acceptable and the KT88 went back in. They sound very nice now with the bottom end increase. 6L6GC will go in next.
Hi Oatmeal,
it looks like your amplifier (and ears) prefer high inductance cable rather than high capacitance.
The slightly raised series R will also raise the effective driver Q.
I don't think anyone here will dispute that the cables have a made some/lot of audible difference to your system.
Now, tell us your opinion on whether you believe it is the sound of the cables that has changed the proportions of bass, mid, treble and the cleanness of the final signal or if it's the effect the cable has had on the amp and the speaker that is causing the audible change.
it looks like your amplifier (and ears) prefer high inductance cable rather than high capacitance.
The slightly raised series R will also raise the effective driver Q.
I don't think anyone here will dispute that the cables have a made some/lot of audible difference to your system.
Now, tell us your opinion on whether you believe it is the sound of the cables that has changed the proportions of bass, mid, treble and the cleanness of the final signal or if it's the effect the cable has had on the amp and the speaker that is causing the audible change.
I truly wish I could say but i'm just following in the footsteps of people here that I believe to be knowledgeable such as Planet10. My opinion is that it sounds much better. My opinion of why however is useless since I can't back it up with reasons. I can see the cause and effect of changes but lack the knowledge and test equipment to be able to explain the reason why. Hope this doesn't sound argumentative. Perhaps others can give us real reasons why it works.
Hi Oatmeal,
I'm dissapointed that you won't commit yourself to standing on one side of the fence or the other.
I will stand on one side and speak for you.
Cables do not sound different.
Cable characteristics affect the source and receiver behaviour. The source and receiver change their response and thus their sound as a result of the changed cable characteristics.
I'm dissapointed that you won't commit yourself to standing on one side of the fence or the other.
I will stand on one side and speak for you.
Cables do not sound different.
Cable characteristics affect the source and receiver behaviour. The source and receiver change their response and thus their sound as a result of the changed cable characteristics.
AndrewT said:
Sort of what i've been hammering away at... that cables, speakers, and amplifiers have to be thot of as a system and cannot be considered in isolation.
Your statement is just semantics. I do believe that there are characteristics of cables that do affect the sound all by themselves.
But to further bolster the system thing....
http://www.audiodesignline.com/GLOB.../showArticle.jhtml?articleId=201807390&pgno=1
dave
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Hi Planet,
I have no problem with you being on the other side of the fence.
It's just that the two sides will never agree, but it's not semantics.
Replace one cable with another with the same parameters and it will affect the ancilliaries in the same way with the result that the sound will be affected in the same way.
Chee whizz, did I just define the power amplifier and the speaker as ancilliaries and the cable as the dominant? I must be wrong. 😱
I have no problem with you being on the other side of the fence.
It's just that the two sides will never agree, but it's not semantics.
Replace one cable with another with the same parameters and it will affect the ancilliaries in the same way with the result that the sound will be affected in the same way.
Chee whizz, did I just define the power amplifier and the speaker as ancilliaries and the cable as the dominant? I must be wrong. 😱
I certainly agree that amps, speakers and cables all have unique sounds. I disagree with the synergy approach, i.e, if your amp sags on top, use a speaker with a rising response and/or "bright" cables. I design my speaker to be as flat as possible and drive them with a flat amp with the intent of a flat overall response. This is why 16ga zip cord and my DIY 2-pair star-wound CAT5 work well -- they don't add or subtract from the overall FR.
Bob
Bob
Bob Brines said:
You are talking about the other end of the dynamoc spectrum. FR is a gross measure. Where you start pulling out the nuances is 30-40 dB down from the main signal. Something that is much more of a challenge to measure.
dave
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