stryder I won’t reply to you... I won’t go to your level of conversation...its people like you that make this excellent forum loose their best members...
Regards
Regards
Hi jean paul...
That was the kind of reply I expected from you...
My final post on this matter...
You admit that the NE measures better... so why it doesn’t sound better?
Make that question to yourself and try to answer it. You will end with much better knowledge about analog audio design...
Best Regards
That was the kind of reply I expected from you...
My final post on this matter...
You admit that the NE measures better... so why it doesn’t sound better?
Make that question to yourself and try to answer it. You will end with much better knowledge about analog audio design...
Best Regards
rickpt said:
If it measures better, it is better. Well this could be true if the measurements that are most often used were actually meaningful.
Take THD for instance. Without a plot of the spectrum of the harmonics this measurement is total useless. And in many cases it can be worse than useless, it can be a "marketing tool". In the late 70s & 80s there was many a manufacturer that kept pushing the fedback up to get ever lower & lower THD numbers. The fact was that the lower the number the more worse these sounded, because althou the THD was down the number and amount of much more obnoxious higher order harmonics increased.
Blind adherance to your simple philiosopy of measurement rules is a blind alley that will not lead you to audio nirvana, but to the looney bin.
dave
I own a marantz cd63 mkII and have applied a few simple mods.
I have dampened the chassis with buitemin pads (not sure if the spelling is correct). I got the pads at a car accessories store. People use them for noise and vibration damping in cars. I increased the weight of the cd-player with 3-4 kg`s. The sound was better in the lower frequencies after the mod.
Recently i borrowed some nordost pulsarpoints with positve results. The sounstage (wider and deeper) improved when using pulsarpoints. These are unfortunatly expensive.
At this site you can find somewhat relevant information about marantz cdp mods:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cd67.html
Upgrading your cdp`s clock is good tweek. Info about making your own clock you can find here:
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t708955/cunos.htm
Picture of pulsarpoints:
I have dampened the chassis with buitemin pads (not sure if the spelling is correct). I got the pads at a car accessories store. People use them for noise and vibration damping in cars. I increased the weight of the cd-player with 3-4 kg`s. The sound was better in the lower frequencies after the mod.
Recently i borrowed some nordost pulsarpoints with positve results. The sounstage (wider and deeper) improved when using pulsarpoints. These are unfortunatly expensive.
At this site you can find somewhat relevant information about marantz cdp mods:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cd67.html
Upgrading your cdp`s clock is good tweek. Info about making your own clock you can find here:
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t708955/cunos.htm
Picture of pulsarpoints:
Attachments
I planet 10
This is becoming a nice discussion
Do you only measure thd at 1 kHz like those manufacturers did? Measuring distortion at other frequencies gives other clues about the amplifier performance...
people from the hole world comes to this forum... some of them likes valves, some of them like pass labs amps, some of them like the opamp x, some of them the y...
That’s subjective and I have nothing against it...I don’t discuss people's tastes
Now if you don’t like or don’t believe in measurement’s you only can say that you prefer the opamp x instead of the opamp y
And if you only do that I will have nothing to say, but people don’t usually do that, they only try to prove that something is better because sounds better to them and they don’t have nothing real to prove that the sound or the performance of the device is better and they are right. Those people are wrong; they only want to prove that they are right...
So many times I’ve read personal attacks on person's because they have a different way of thinking, some of those person's didn’t even listen to the opamp in question 😕 read the various threads regarding the NE5532/34 an you will see...
Arrogance and and the lack of open mind to other kind of knowledge makes this kind of behavior...
Best Regards to all the forum members
Ricardo
This is becoming a nice discussion
Do you only measure thd at 1 kHz like those manufacturers did? Measuring distortion at other frequencies gives other clues about the amplifier performance...
people from the hole world comes to this forum... some of them likes valves, some of them like pass labs amps, some of them like the opamp x, some of them the y...
That’s subjective and I have nothing against it...I don’t discuss people's tastes
Now if you don’t like or don’t believe in measurement’s you only can say that you prefer the opamp x instead of the opamp y
And if you only do that I will have nothing to say, but people don’t usually do that, they only try to prove that something is better because sounds better to them and they don’t have nothing real to prove that the sound or the performance of the device is better and they are right. Those people are wrong; they only want to prove that they are right...
So many times I’ve read personal attacks on person's because they have a different way of thinking, some of those person's didn’t even listen to the opamp in question 😕 read the various threads regarding the NE5532/34 an you will see...
Arrogance and and the lack of open mind to other kind of knowledge makes this kind of behavior...
Best Regards to all the forum members
Ricardo
rickpt said:
Marketing rules the world
yes, it does, which is why i need to question if these improvements are worthwhile - is it worth strengethening the chassis? - reading a review of the OSE and KI on the same website shows that the review people feel that the CD players are good at both price levels - so this means that Ken Ishiwata is not only a master of marketing but a master of improving hi fi stuff.
do you agree?
I have listen to the all the version of the marantz cd 6000 player. I prefer the basic 6000
You may prefer the other ones… instead of believing in people and magazines go to a hi-fi shop and listen to them all… then you can believe in yourself… but one thing to remember Mr. Ken ishiwata is trying to sell you an equipment…
About the damping, try it… it’s the only way you are going to learn if it work’s or don’t work’s
Regards
You may prefer the other ones… instead of believing in people and magazines go to a hi-fi shop and listen to them all… then you can believe in yourself… but one thing to remember Mr. Ken ishiwata is trying to sell you an equipment…
About the damping, try it… it’s the only way you are going to learn if it work’s or don’t work’s
Regards
Hi
I`am about to try some mods to my cdp (Marantz cd63mkII). One of the changes I want to do is to replace the opamps. I`ll use opa627 and opa637 (making my own adaptor for this mod).
And i might not use the HDAM modules..
Any coments on this ??
Chris
I`am about to try some mods to my cdp (Marantz cd63mkII). One of the changes I want to do is to replace the opamps. I`ll use opa627 and opa637 (making my own adaptor for this mod).
And i might not use the HDAM modules..
Any coments on this ??
Chris
rickpt said:
This would make the THD measurement a 2D manifold in 3-space which would actually be something very useful -- it would take some skill to interperet.
It is not that i don't believe in measurements, just that it is clear that they cannot tell us (yet anyway) what something sounds like.
And in the end the purpose of a hifi is so we can listen to the music and the only one we need to satisfy is ourselves. Different people will have different listening bias/preferences and what allows them to enjoy the music more is the better one.
Saying something measures better, does not mean it is better, because we still only measure a very small subset of the performance of the DUT. A measurement can help us find out things quantitatively that we hear qualitatively and as such is a useful tool to (hopefully) help improve a piece of kit. But i don't watch music on an ocsilloscope or a meter, i listen to it with my ears.
I do note that in a later post than the one i quote, that you suggest that one goes listen to the piece of gear in question, not to go measure it, so i guess even you do not believe that if it measures better it is better 😀
dave
rickpt said:
You have this air of arrogance... I would like to learn from you and understand the point you are making - but all I see is someone that believes they know everything dismiss all the mods that are being suggested.
Damping works bud. It is an obvious tweak to do to a CDP; just like it is an obvious tweak for a turntable. CDP's have spinning motor that imparts vibration into the chassis and pcb; that vibration can cause laser to become less precise and cause the pcb to ring with microphonics. Damping also prevents outside vibrations from reaching the CDP. Damping improved all 2 players I tried it on; in fact it changed the character drastically on these players (it was not a subtle change): Denon DCD-835 (got rid of it's over-brightness and improved low bass) and Marantz CD36 (improved everything).
So.. explain to me why damping WOULDN'T work?
rickpt said:
And how many clocks did you say that you have installed in CD/SACD players?
FYI, the improvement after a clock mod is B-I-G and probably one of the most cost effective upgrades one can do in a digital hifi rig.
/Peter
rickpt said:
i did, i thought, as the price suggests, that the Ki version sounded better, but i couldn't justify the extra cost so i settled with the ose version (which I though sounded better then the standard one) although the standard version is appealing to me now due to the reduced components which makes it easier to mod.
finally, can u name a hi-fi manufacturer that isn't trying to sell u equipment?
One of the big differences between a £400 CDP and a £1000 CDP is the £200 of heavier machined casing in the latter.
Damping makes sense. You can also do a lot more than even KI managed on his Signature. You can stick blu tack or rubber o-rings under the pcb supports. Seldom do they offer adequate pcb support and damping on <£400 CDP's. In fact you can use great pillars of blu tack under flappy unsupported areas of the pcb. This change alone can resolve the majority of microphonic issues (glare, lack of bass, imprecision). All <£400 CDP's are still comprimised. Beyond £400 most CDP's are remarkbly similar from a cost of electronics viewpoint to £1000 players. It's transport (sometimes a die-cast), case work and power supply from there on in. Then again - maybe you have one of the many +£700 players that shares it's transport with £100 players.
Whatever.. damping always improves performance.
Damping makes sense. You can also do a lot more than even KI managed on his Signature. You can stick blu tack or rubber o-rings under the pcb supports. Seldom do they offer adequate pcb support and damping on <£400 CDP's. In fact you can use great pillars of blu tack under flappy unsupported areas of the pcb. This change alone can resolve the majority of microphonic issues (glare, lack of bass, imprecision). All <£400 CDP's are still comprimised. Beyond £400 most CDP's are remarkbly similar from a cost of electronics viewpoint to £1000 players. It's transport (sometimes a die-cast), case work and power supply from there on in. Then again - maybe you have one of the many +£700 players that shares it's transport with £100 players.
Whatever.. damping always improves performance.
Hi Dave
How can you say that something is better, without objective statements to prove that the performance is better? You can say that it’s better to you, or the sound is better to you this or you prefer this part or device, but you can’t say it’s better!
Can you see my point of view? Audio is very subjective…
Arrogance is trying to say that something is better! when it’s only better to you, maybe it isn’t better to me or to other person…
Regards
How can you say that something is better, without objective statements to prove that the performance is better? You can say that it’s better to you, or the sound is better to you this or you prefer this part or device, but you can’t say it’s better!
Can you see my point of view? Audio is very subjective…
Arrogance is trying to say that something is better! when it’s only better to you, maybe it isn’t better to me or to other person…
Regards
Hey fellows, there is one more reason that could explain superiority of other opamps in Marantz opposed to NE5532. As you most likely agree NE5532 is made for audio signals - right? Well the DAC chip in Marantz put out a lot of crap way outside the audio spectrum and I think this is one of the reasons that audio opamps don't perform well in this circuit. Is it IMD or something else I don't know I can only see spectrum up to 20k with my setup... 🙁
I used LM6172 in my CD67 and in many after that and always felt that there is huge improvement in sound because of this.
**
Anyway, the simplest and cheapest trick in all the Marantz players mentioned is to get rid of the electrolytic caps (ELNA-s back to back) at the signal output. As there has not been any DC of more than +/- 20mV in the players I have modified I have considered it safe to just put wire jumpers in these places. Try this and you will be positively surprised.
In my experience the electrolytics are very bad idea if there is no DC component on them, they crap the sound even if the caps are made by ELNA.
Ergo
I used LM6172 in my CD67 and in many after that and always felt that there is huge improvement in sound because of this.
**
Anyway, the simplest and cheapest trick in all the Marantz players mentioned is to get rid of the electrolytic caps (ELNA-s back to back) at the signal output. As there has not been any DC of more than +/- 20mV in the players I have modified I have considered it safe to just put wire jumpers in these places. Try this and you will be positively surprised.
In my experience the electrolytics are very bad idea if there is no DC component on them, they crap the sound even if the caps are made by ELNA.
Ergo
rickpt said:
I can see your point of view (at least the last bit) because it is my point of view, and you made some erroneous assumptions to assume different. But there are NO objective means to test stuff that will prove something is better, so all we are left with is listening. And what is better is for the individual to decide -- with their ears.
Now if you get a significant sample of people who hear that something is better, or someone who has a good track record of hearing that something is better, then you can be more confident that it will sound better.
And some things make such large differences that almost everyone hears the improvement.
dave
I tried, and I tried… and did not resist… How can you say that something is anything (better or worst, good or bad) without objective proof that even exists? Man, you don’t talk about the hi-fi. Read everything you can find from Decart to Wittgenstein or Peter Strawson. They dealt with the things that you now concern with.rickpt said:
Pedja
Hi Dave
Let’s end this... i see no point in further discunsing this...my point was clear... and my post's have became rather unplesant to the comunity so this will be my last...
To Chris: you can certainly try it without the hdam... in the cd 63 it's just a unity gain amplifier and has no filter attached to it... the cd43/53 are equal to the 63 but without the hdam and different parts selection. Look at the service manual and you will see this
the opa627 and is brother 637 are good choices but try all the other ones, even the ones people say that they suck... you will gain experience in doing that. And read carefully the manufacturer's datasheet...
To ergo: I don’t agree with you, this is my opinion: the sm5872bs is a voltage output dac and if you look at the application note or the marantz schematic, you will see an RC filter between the dac output and the both input's of the opamp so the problem you are talking about will be much smaller... know let's look at the burr brown part like the pcm1738 that has current output and the typical application is I/V converter based on opamp's. all the out of band noise will enter directly in the inverting input of the opamp, without any filtering, creating IMD problems you talk about. That’s why so many people don’t like I\V converters based on opamp's.
About the caps I agree whit you...but on my marantz 1 of the channels had 100mv of offset, so measure before making the mod.
Best regards
Ricardo
Ps: What you guys shouldn’t do... 🙂 http://www.raymondaudio.nl/projects/project4/project4.html
Let’s end this... i see no point in further discunsing this...my point was clear... and my post's have became rather unplesant to the comunity so this will be my last...
To Chris: you can certainly try it without the hdam... in the cd 63 it's just a unity gain amplifier and has no filter attached to it... the cd43/53 are equal to the 63 but without the hdam and different parts selection. Look at the service manual and you will see this
the opa627 and is brother 637 are good choices but try all the other ones, even the ones people say that they suck... you will gain experience in doing that. And read carefully the manufacturer's datasheet...
To ergo: I don’t agree with you, this is my opinion: the sm5872bs is a voltage output dac and if you look at the application note or the marantz schematic, you will see an RC filter between the dac output and the both input's of the opamp so the problem you are talking about will be much smaller... know let's look at the burr brown part like the pcm1738 that has current output and the typical application is I/V converter based on opamp's. all the out of band noise will enter directly in the inverting input of the opamp, without any filtering, creating IMD problems you talk about. That’s why so many people don’t like I\V converters based on opamp's.
About the caps I agree whit you...but on my marantz 1 of the channels had 100mv of offset, so measure before making the mod.
Best regards
Ricardo
Ps: What you guys shouldn’t do... 🙂 http://www.raymondaudio.nl/projects/project4/project4.html
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