Based on the EL6472 manual, and assuming W in Figures 10 & 11 is actually 'turns', and using 5 ohm impedance for A+B+C secondaries (and also D+E+F), then primary PP impedance is 10kohm given 5650 PP turns and 124 secondary turns.
This would certainly make for a nominal 'speaker' output situation.
This would certainly make for a nominal 'speaker' output situation.
When you refer to figure 11 on page 22, then you are right.
W=windingen = turns.
Dutch -- English
W=windingen = turns.
Dutch -- English
Thanks for the lead on the oil. I'll have to look into it. I'd like to get the transformer back into oil as soon as it has been cleaned up and checked out a bit.
Lower voltage chokes in series would be OK, yes that is 100% right because they would divide the voltage according to impedance. A disadvantage is that the KV+ chokes are usually much larger for one reason or another so that's an issue making things fit with a string of them. OK well this is the 'fun' part!
PJ,
I suggest it would be worthwhile contacting Mat Janssen on janssen.mat@gmail.com. He has a lot of copied material from the Philips museum that is not for internet access, but may well be applicable to the EL6472, and hopefully to your unit - the Service Doc that Funker linked to was from Mat. Mat has a website at Amplifiers with valves and has been very helpful to me with old Philips PA amp info.
Ciao, Tim
I suggest it would be worthwhile contacting Mat Janssen on janssen.mat@gmail.com. He has a lot of copied material from the Philips museum that is not for internet access, but may well be applicable to the EL6472, and hopefully to your unit - the Service Doc that Funker linked to was from Mat. Mat has a website at Amplifiers with valves and has been very helpful to me with old Philips PA amp info.
Ciao, Tim
Hi ,
words which are many times be confuse with,
especially in dutch and german laguage.
(plural)
dutch: Wikkelingen
englisch: bobbins or coils
german: Wicklungen
dutch: windingen
englisch: turns
german: Windungen
it is a small , but subtle distinction.
A transformer has at least two or more coils, and each of them have a dedicated number of turns. 🙂
The same sentence in German will be this:
Ein Transformator hat mindestens zwei oder mehrere Wicklungen, jede von ihnen hat eine definierte Anzahl von Windungen.
You see, nearly the same words! In dutch it will looks similar.
73
Wolfgang
Thanks for all this help!
Finally got some help to get the transformer and chassis into the lab. That transformer is filthy. It's possible there was a slow leak of oil from one of the output terminal seals. these are rubber. The other possibility is that when the unit has been handled, tilted, etc, some oil leaked out.
There is a rubber gasket at the top but it does not seem like it would keep any real pressure in. The 'cap' on the top of the transformer has a dipstick with a mark indicating 20 deg C. It's not clear where any replacement seals may be obtained. maybe made. Maybe the oil level can be adjusted to cover the windings leaving the terminals dry.
The 'rust' stain is not really rust but crud. How strange, but good. Anyway the core is wet with oil as when I was cleaning it, oil squeezed out from between the laminations. This means the thing is still soaking in oil.
Someone has dropped one of the top cover bolts, about a 1/4-20 type, into the can. I fished it out with a magnetic probe.
So far so good. I want to completely clean the outside of the can and then measure the inductance and do a low voltage test to confirm ratios and polarities.
The wiring harness to the output winding terminals is #10.
The center tapped feedback winding has been identified.
For a Philips-made equipment, I expected metric European-style hardware but found "English" so far. I do not know if Holland was metric or English when this was made, or, if it was made with SAE hardware due to its UD branding and USA sales area.
This transformer looks like it has several windings on the secondary rather than two. I could not see a part number anywhere. The HV center tap previously asked about goes down to the bottom of the winding, so it may enter the coil wrappings there not at the top.
The bracket that held the original power transformer longitudinally front-to-back in the rear compartment of the amp is missing.
There may be a set of 400# 5" rubber casters here that will hold the beast and allow it to be easily moved. This amp does not have a chassis plate or base-pan. A steel plate can be made that will serve as a new bottom plate for mounting power components or at least catching oil drips.
Finally got some help to get the transformer and chassis into the lab. That transformer is filthy. It's possible there was a slow leak of oil from one of the output terminal seals. these are rubber. The other possibility is that when the unit has been handled, tilted, etc, some oil leaked out.
There is a rubber gasket at the top but it does not seem like it would keep any real pressure in. The 'cap' on the top of the transformer has a dipstick with a mark indicating 20 deg C. It's not clear where any replacement seals may be obtained. maybe made. Maybe the oil level can be adjusted to cover the windings leaving the terminals dry.
The 'rust' stain is not really rust but crud. How strange, but good. Anyway the core is wet with oil as when I was cleaning it, oil squeezed out from between the laminations. This means the thing is still soaking in oil.
Someone has dropped one of the top cover bolts, about a 1/4-20 type, into the can. I fished it out with a magnetic probe.
So far so good. I want to completely clean the outside of the can and then measure the inductance and do a low voltage test to confirm ratios and polarities.
The wiring harness to the output winding terminals is #10.
The center tapped feedback winding has been identified.
For a Philips-made equipment, I expected metric European-style hardware but found "English" so far. I do not know if Holland was metric or English when this was made, or, if it was made with SAE hardware due to its UD branding and USA sales area.
This transformer looks like it has several windings on the secondary rather than two. I could not see a part number anywhere. The HV center tap previously asked about goes down to the bottom of the winding, so it may enter the coil wrappings there not at the top.
The bracket that held the original power transformer longitudinally front-to-back in the rear compartment of the amp is missing.
There may be a set of 400# 5" rubber casters here that will hold the beast and allow it to be easily moved. This amp does not have a chassis plate or base-pan. A steel plate can be made that will serve as a new bottom plate for mounting power components or at least catching oil drips.
I'm not having much luck finding a local dealer for Diala BX. I will have to try the telephone book tomorrow.
As I understood it - the oil is extremely 'wicky' to ensure air is more easily expelled- perhaps there is a process for heating/cooling to remove air - and the oil is not pressurised - I'll check what info a colleague remembers of the process and seals.
The bushing seals in your first photo did look a little 'cracked'. Maybe need to find a regional electric utility transformer reconditioner/rental firm for advise on the bushing seals - and may be oil.
The bushing seals in your first photo did look a little 'cracked'. Maybe need to find a regional electric utility transformer reconditioner/rental firm for advise on the bushing seals - and may be oil.
I'm glad to know about the oil and the bushings. I can see one of them is in poor shape. On the 1KW version site, the OPT oil was replaced with wax.
EL6471 1kW Großverstärker (Type 102408)
Ausgangstransformator in Öl (möglicherweise PCB-hältig)
Output transformer oil (PCB may hältig) replaced oil with wax
What is "hältig" ? Containing? (maybe not leaking)
Öl gegen Wachs ersetzt
replaced oil with wax
Finally put all the material provided, and pictures taken so far on a web page:
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/philips/el6472/index.html
Not much else has been done yet.
I have to clean the nasty OPT, it has a coating of dirt. It's on the work bench Bought some de-greaser.
EL6471 1kW Großverstärker (Type 102408)
Ausgangstransformator in Öl (möglicherweise PCB-hältig)
Output transformer oil (PCB may hältig) replaced oil with wax
What is "hältig" ? Containing? (maybe not leaking)
Öl gegen Wachs ersetzt
replaced oil with wax
Finally put all the material provided, and pictures taken so far on a web page:
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/philips/el6472/index.html
Not much else has been done yet.
I have to clean the nasty OPT, it has a coating of dirt. It's on the work bench Bought some de-greaser.
Hältig means indeed containing.
The output tranformer can be filled with PCB contained oil !!
Hi,
haltig: adjectiv.
comes from the verb: halten = to keep, to hold, to stop
means contains, has something in it,
"The fuel is leaded = Der Treibstoff ist Bleihaltig"
English german examples:
haltig - Englisch-Übersetzung – Linguee Wörterbuch
73
Wolfgang
haltig: adjectiv.
comes from the verb: halten = to keep, to hold, to stop
means contains, has something in it,
"The fuel is leaded = Der Treibstoff ist Bleihaltig"
English german examples:
haltig - Englisch-Übersetzung – Linguee Wörterbuch
73
Wolfgang
Just jumping in with a good advice for oil and good advices on that.
Check if you have mains grid maintenance crew in your neighbourhood.
All the mainsgrid transformers are still oilfilled and have gasket sealings.
For some cake you´ll get all the rubber and oil you need and probably some cleaning solvent to from the people working with it.
Check if you have mains grid maintenance crew in your neighbourhood.
All the mainsgrid transformers are still oilfilled and have gasket sealings.
For some cake you´ll get all the rubber and oil you need and probably some cleaning solvent to from the people working with it.
PJ,
Some advice on that OT oil is that the oil is amazingly 'wet' and will get out of any crack before you know it, and will disperse itself over a floor for 'miles'. After filling, only about 12-24hrs is needed to allow all bubbles to extract themselves, without any need for heating or other method to extract air pockets before using transformer. A top air vent going through a desiccant filter is standard practise to keep the oil in good condition and allow for thermal expansion.
Ciao, Tim
Some advice on that OT oil is that the oil is amazingly 'wet' and will get out of any crack before you know it, and will disperse itself over a floor for 'miles'. After filling, only about 12-24hrs is needed to allow all bubbles to extract themselves, without any need for heating or other method to extract air pockets before using transformer. A top air vent going through a desiccant filter is standard practise to keep the oil in good condition and allow for thermal expansion.
Ciao, Tim
Hey thanks to all for this great help on the translation and the oil.
I guess I should put the transformer in a container first, and fill it up, so as to discover leaks. It's at the top of the chassis, so any leaks will go also all over the power supplies area. And the carpet. The gentleman on the website, seemed to use wax. That might be an option. Is there any disadvantage to some kind of industrial wax? It seems more permanent. I would not wish to have to remove it.
I guess I should put the transformer in a container first, and fill it up, so as to discover leaks. It's at the top of the chassis, so any leaks will go also all over the power supplies area. And the carpet. The gentleman on the website, seemed to use wax. That might be an option. Is there any disadvantage to some kind of industrial wax? It seems more permanent. I would not wish to have to remove it.
Transformer oil is hard to get unless your going to buy a 55 gallon drum. Best bet is look in your phone book for a transformer shop. Take them the transformer and have the check the seals on the bushings. Then have them fill it. It will probably cost you a couple hundred bucks. But it will be done right.
Don't fill it with wax. You'll just destroy it. The transformer will more then likely have to be baked a while before it can be filled. An even then it will have to be pulled under vacuum to get the oil in the windings. A vacuum is the only way to get the bubbles out of the windings.
There is not a non flammable option for transformer oil anymore. The only one was PCB. If you can't find oil or anyone to do it, you can use mineral oil in a pinch. But you need to de gas it by pulling a vacuum on it. Mineral oil doesn't have the corrosion inhibitors that transformer oil has. Other then that, its the same thing.
Nick
Don't fill it with wax. You'll just destroy it. The transformer will more then likely have to be baked a while before it can be filled. An even then it will have to be pulled under vacuum to get the oil in the windings. A vacuum is the only way to get the bubbles out of the windings.
There is not a non flammable option for transformer oil anymore. The only one was PCB. If you can't find oil or anyone to do it, you can use mineral oil in a pinch. But you need to de gas it by pulling a vacuum on it. Mineral oil doesn't have the corrosion inhibitors that transformer oil has. Other then that, its the same thing.
Nick
I dont agree on needing to pull a vacuum to get all trapped air out. At my old job we repaired and refilled a couple of three phase 415 to 12KV transformers from induction heating machines. We simply warmed up the transformer and case with a fan heater for several hours. We then filled it with oil and put the lid on sealed tight. As it cools down it creates it's own vacuum, after a couple of days just let the air back in. You could heat it by shorting the primary and applying current through a variac to the secondary up to the rated power of the transformer. Of course we could not do this as the transformers were 150KVA.
Cheers Matt.
Cheers Matt.
Matt I would normally agree with you if the transformer was filled with oil normally. But correct me if I'm wrong, he got this transformer empty. Did he not? So its had lots of time for the kraft paper to asborb lots of moisture.
So no Matt, you don't absolutely have to do it. But it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to bake it out and pull a vacuum on it.
Matt the process I'm suggesting is what is done to a new transformer after its built. Not for one that's been in oil for years. For this one its just some insurance to make sure there's no problem.
Nick
So no Matt, you don't absolutely have to do it. But it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to bake it out and pull a vacuum on it.
Matt the process I'm suggesting is what is done to a new transformer after its built. Not for one that's been in oil for years. For this one its just some insurance to make sure there's no problem.
Nick
Get whatever dirt of first and clean it up.
Poor in the oil and then stick in a dipheater heat it up above waterboiling temp and let it sit over night.
The core and oil won´t get harmed and the moist wil boil of.
Be sure the heater is tempcontrolled so you don´t get near the oils flamepoint
.
Poor in the oil and then stick in a dipheater heat it up above waterboiling temp and let it sit over night.
The core and oil won´t get harmed and the moist wil boil of.
Be sure the heater is tempcontrolled so you don´t get near the oils flamepoint
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