Ultimate small bookshelf?

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#21
DIYNewbie said:
I certainly appreciate all of the input so far. I am constantly amazed by the depth of knowledge on this board. I am leaning towards the Northcreek kit, but I do have a few concerns.

1) If I throw a sub into the mix, how does that change the suggestions provided?
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You could use main speakers that don't go so low (down to 80 or 100 Hz, rather than 50).



2) Since this is my first attempt at a DIY speaker, am I better off building a cheaper kit just to get my feet wet?
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Don't be a wuss. It's only money.


3) As DIY'ers, how do you get around the fact that you can't go hear these speakers before laying down several hundred dollars? There have been a number of times I have gone to a store with my mind pretty much made up (by reading reviews) only to hear the speaker and be dissapointed.
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You can't tell what a system will sound like in your room by listening to it in a store. Besides, loudspeaker salespeople are notoriously tricky.
 
#22
when I was doing the research prior to building my speakers, I listened to various bookshelf speakers. I realy liked these speakers:

Scan-Speak Reference A4 Mk II

29.8 x 21 x 26.9 cm

80 Watt
86dB/1W/1m
4 ohm
40 - 22.000 Hz
D2905/9700
-
15W4531/G00
9 liter

Wood kit: 30 en 22mm MDF eur 55,- a piece
speaker/filter kit: eur 480,- a piece

This is maybe not the ultimate speaker, but the best design I listened to.

I built somethig a bit cheaper, which sounded a bit similar like the above:

Sputnik 10-2
Peerless
2 weg basreflex systeem
compact
26,6 x 15,9 x 19 cm

50 Watt
82 dB/1W/1m
8 ohm

WA 10

CSC 116 G
4,5 liter

27,50 p.st.
105,- p.st.

Cheers,
 
#23
DIYNewbie said:
I am leaning towards the Northcreek kit, but I do have a few concerns.

1) If I throw a sub into the mix, how does that change the suggestions provided?

2) Since this is my first attempt at a DIY speaker, am I better off building a cheaper kit just to get my feet wet?

3) As DIY'ers, how do you get around the fact that you can't go hear these speakers before laying down several hundred dollars? There have been a number of times I have gone to a store with my mind pretty much made up (by reading reviews) only to hear the speaker and be dissapointed.

4) Finally, and I know this is tough to quantify, but how much better will a DIY kit speaker sound than a commercial model? Does $300 of DIY = $1,000 of commercial?
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1. this is one reason why is suggested a sealed box unit. then again i dont really know any sealed box speakers that are as small as you need that can provide usable bass below 60Hz so if you are not adding a sub a ported/bass relfex box is a better option. firstly if you throw a sub in the mix you can go to a sealed satellite. secondly you can maybe getaway with less or no BSC esp since your sats will be on a shelf with their backs presumably against the wall.

2. Yes and No. Yes because if it does not work out you have invested too much. No because if you do not intend building another set then this set might not satisfy your future needs. After all you can only build as many speakers as you can use. Alternately you can find a relative or friend to whom you can palm of the cheaper speakers once they are complete.

3. that is why i frequent forums such as these. I look at drivers that have several recomendations from disparate sources esp if a driver has recomendations from someone in california who listens to rock and someone in germany who listens to baroque. As I live in India and have to conted with our import duties and laws it is more imperitive that driver research be done well.

4. as a reference the Vandersteen 2C has/had a dynaudio D28 tweeter, a 4" Vifa Mid, a 8" woofer and a 10" PR. I estimate the retail cost of these alone to be about $450-500. Vanderstten might have paid a lot less in bulk. A Bose 301 Sereis 2 that I opened and repaired in 1986 had a woofer that cost $7 and 2" cone tweeters that were got for $2 each hardly a XO and a 12mm chip board cabinet. Here I estimate all the poarts probably cost $50/pair. The speaker sold for $300. So what i have realised that some "audiophile" marques offer more value than the more commercial marques. IT DEPENDS.
 
#24
While I continue to be impressed with the advice ("wus" comment not withstanding), I am still frustrated. The one criteria I really can't change is the 12" shelf height. There are internal negotiations to allow the speaker to rest on a different shelf (15"), but they aren't going well. The NorthCreek kit is great, but 12.5" tall.

Maybe this is a newbie question and I should know better, but here goes... Center channel speakers are a MTM configuration laid out horizontally. Could 2 of those design work in a 2ch setup? I can be as wide as I want, just not very tall...

Are there any kits out there with designs similar to the M&K line of speakers? They tend to be shorter, but wider with four speakers arraged in two columns.

Thanks again.
 
#26
You can easily make the speaker less tall, and if your going
for a sealed alignment with a sub don't even worry about
changing the other dimensions, omit the port alltogether.

I'd go for the NC tweeter option also, is far better value.

A similar kit is the BESL 1.2 :

http://www.bamberglab.com/m12.htm

Note that as these designs typically do not have baffle step
compensation changing the front panel dimensions is not an
issue, you can easily redesign the boxes without any real
issues, a larger front baffle in width may even sound better.

🙂 sreten.
 
#27
I think you are doing well . Certainly you could make the North Creek less tall, and deeper without consequence. Wider? I'll bet it will matter very little. Center channel speakers are a bit weird, so I don't think they would make good stereo pairs.

I feel that my time is worth a lot, so I think that I get better value
by building high end stuff. That's why I recommended the North Creek.

Yes, you don't get to hear them unless your buddy has a pair-which I think is how a lot of kit speakers get sold. It's a real problem, Olsens Ariel for example is generally acknowledged as really good speaker , but I know of people disappointed because it's sound isn't "lively" enough. (after building that very complicated box!!) SO, read how they are described, and be somewhat reassured that they are probably better than any speakers that you have owned, and are better than anything that most people would be able to fit into this space.

If you are probably going to use a sub then get a design that already is designed to work with a specific sub. Both the Besl and North Creek are made to work with subs they make.

If the boxes aren't perfect looking, it sounds like that they won't be very obvious on your shelves, But It is hard to make the boxes mbadly enough to affect the sound!!
 
#28
DIYNewbie said:
While I continue to be impressed with the advice ("wus" comment not withstanding),
Click to expand...


Dang. I thought that was my best advice ever.

...
Maybe this is a newbie question and I should know better, but here goes... Center channel speakers are a MTM configuration laid out horizontally. Could 2 of those design work in a 2ch setup? I can be as wide as I want, just not very tall...
Click to expand...


They would not work real well for creating a stereo image. The horizontal configuration is a compromise to aesthetics. People don't like the look of a vertical speaker on top of their TV sets. Since the whole idea of a center speaker is to make dialog sound like it's coming from the middle, the compromise tolerable or movies.
 
#29
DIYNewbie said:

4) Finally, and I know this is tough to quantify, but how much better will a DIY kit speaker sound than a commercial model? Does $300 of DIY = $1,000 of commercial?
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I now have two DIY systems. One is a set of Lynn Olson Ariels. The other is Fostex FE107E ML TL's + Peerless 10" XLS/PR subwoofer. Each system cost about $400 for parts. The Ariels have very complicated cabinets.

Both systems sound much better than a set of Polk towers with built-in powered subwoofers that I have at home. Those originally retailed for $2400. They do not hold their own against either DIY system. It's not even close. I think it's very important the cabinets of both the DIY systems are solidly built. Solid, heavy cabinets are expensive to ship. The Polk speakers do not do very well in the knuckle-rap test. You can also feel the vibrations when they are playing. I also sprang for AudioCap tweeter caps for the Ariels, and of course, the FE107E's don't use caps. I think that's another big difference.
 
#31
12" Bookshelf

I just noticed that a Proac monitor is exactly 12" tall. You need front firing port like Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 ($399.00) if you are going to put in bookshelf. I do not like any of the kit bookshelves. Everyone is making their money on parts and cabinets. The DIY value just isn't there. Look at the ribbons
mixed with Excel Magnesium woofers. They are equally expensive whether commercial or DIY.
 
#32
Have you considered an active setup?

With the budget you have- especially if you don't mind buying additional amps, wich suffer far less depriciation then DIY speakers it is somthing you might consider.

Many people on this forum don't like active setups for whatever reason- But I love them- you might blow a few tweeters but you can bassically go for it and you can guarantee perfect phase allignment because an digital active crossover can handle it for you. In my view it takes alot of the mistery out of it- it would be easier to make whatever takes your fancy driver wise and get the sound you want out of them-

It will require some tweeking but luckily this is easy with the digital XO- Also I find the overall risk to be much lower- if there is a problem caused by the speakers or the room, or the placement you can fix it, without having to figure out how to change the wireing or values of it's components-

If you are looking for a pretty full range setup I would consider a 3 way active setup with the tang band 6.5" subwoofer on PE- then for space reasons you could use a soft dome mid and a supertweeter- you could probably fit 3 of those tangband's into the space you are talking about and get true sub performance- and reasonable max spl- then again I am thinking about building this setup soo-

Then you can tweak it to your taste- Just a thought-

Ryan
 
#39
yes he did say that and $250 on JX 92 will still leave $750 for cabinets. maybe a JX92 and ribbon as sone others have done/recomended will fit his budget. lets see....$250 for JX92, $250 for some ribbons and you still have $500 for cabinet and XO.

However a 103/107 would cost $30 and a cabinet for this would cost say $70 each. so for $200 you have a working pair. and for $800 you can go on a cruise! 🙂 call me a cheap skate but just because a "friend" sys he could spend $1000 does not (to me) mean he SHOULD! 🙂 LOL Pls. do not take this as personal.
 
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