Re: Computer Generated Dimensions
McMeech writes:
"I thought these were all based on Theil-Small.
That makes them unreliable in comparison to actual
sound measurement. Do you have a different experience with your software?"
TG responds:
I'm not certain whether "these" refers to Bogoes design, my "sketchs" or by blanket reference all designs based on T-S, but let me take a run at an answer.
As the old saying goes "All models are wrong. Some models are useful." Theil-Small's models have proven to be useful and provide a fine starting point for roughing out a design. I would agree with you that nothing replaces subjective and objective evaluation of actual performance. I would rather however have a realistic but to use your phrase "unrealiable", or not purely predictive, starting point than a pure SWAG.
WinISD is pretty much the defacto standard among DIY hackers who have simple needs or those who are just plain too cheap to buy a commercial package. I fall into both categories. I have found WinISD useful for both creating basic designs and, just as important to me, understanding the designs that others put forth. Without WinISD I wouldn't have been able to get a basic understanding of what Ted Jordan was trying to achieve with the 92S/6 in just a few minutes this afternoon.
If you have a copy of WinISD recognize that the JX92S is not in the database distributed with the tool and that you need to add it yourself. The 92's predecessor is included the db but you cannot generalize the results to the current driver.
McMeech writes:
"I thought these were all based on Theil-Small.
That makes them unreliable in comparison to actual
sound measurement. Do you have a different experience with your software?"
TG responds:
I'm not certain whether "these" refers to Bogoes design, my "sketchs" or by blanket reference all designs based on T-S, but let me take a run at an answer.
As the old saying goes "All models are wrong. Some models are useful." Theil-Small's models have proven to be useful and provide a fine starting point for roughing out a design. I would agree with you that nothing replaces subjective and objective evaluation of actual performance. I would rather however have a realistic but to use your phrase "unrealiable", or not purely predictive, starting point than a pure SWAG.
WinISD is pretty much the defacto standard among DIY hackers who have simple needs or those who are just plain too cheap to buy a commercial package. I fall into both categories. I have found WinISD useful for both creating basic designs and, just as important to me, understanding the designs that others put forth. Without WinISD I wouldn't have been able to get a basic understanding of what Ted Jordan was trying to achieve with the 92S/6 in just a few minutes this afternoon.
If you have a copy of WinISD recognize that the JX92S is not in the database distributed with the tool and that you need to add it yourself. The 92's predecessor is included the db but you cannot generalize the results to the current driver.
T-S
Veddy interesting
It provides a good starting point for cabinet size, subject to later modification. And crossover, although not needed in the case
of single range drivers, have a computer generated starting point also?
What are the ones for sale at Parts Express(2500, 12db for example)?
Thanks for your patient explanations.
Veddy interesting

of single range drivers, have a computer generated starting point also?
What are the ones for sale at Parts Express(2500, 12db for example)?
Thanks for your patient explanations.
DIYNewbie said:OK - You almost have me sold on the Jordan JX 92's... First question - "Black Gates" what is that?
Thanks again.
I guess other forrumers has already answered the JX92 part. Well, I'm using Joe Ramussen's VBIGC amplifier and for its PSU I'm using 4x 1000uF black gates (do a search and you'll find this amp). In a word, marvellous !
good luck.
regards,
will.
bogoes said:You can find the design for building them (JX92S that is) at Jordan's website, just click on systems - I would recommend the ported 92S/6 layout since you do not have a sub yet. You can change the dimensions to fit into your bookshelve so long as the internal volume remains the same. I calculated it out to be 30x12x22.5 (WxHxD) with a 3" ID port 11" long. The speaker will appear to lay on it's side but this is okay with a fullrange since there is only one driver.
As for purchasing the Jordan JX92S, the only distributor in N. America is in Canada (go figure) so shipping is slow but I have done business with them before and they are a good company.
Go to Creative Sound Solutions
These will be audiophile quality speakers, I have built a cheap pair of Tang Band full-rangers and they sound marvelous - and those drivers were only $15/piece. The Jordan's are true audiophile equipment.
Enjoy,
Chris
No baffle-step correction, right? If he uses a BSC, it will have to acount for the unusual (horizontal) geometry, eh?
bogoes said:As for purchasing the Jordan JX92S, the only distributor in N. America is in Canada (go figure)
These will be audiophile quality speakers, I have built a cheap pair of Tang Band full-rangers and they sound marvelous - and those drivers were only $15/piece.
1. Jordan must have wanted to start small. When we were looking for a distributor/agent in N America most American guys wanted to start big (they all talk million dollar sales). This would have been to large an investment for us (remember as manufcturer we have to supply goods and hope that they sell. goods sitting on a shelf does not help us). We too ended up forging an alliance with a canadian company.
2. TB are good. Jordans are excellent. and so are Fostex. My only suggestion is to try them and see. at $30 each the fostex are great VFM.
Dave Jones said:I think he would be amazed by the Fostexes (Fostices?).
me thinks too.
ML TL Plans
Your wish is my command. Compliments of Martin King.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project05/Project05.html
Your wish is my command. Compliments of Martin King.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project05/Project05.html
Dave Jones said:Is there a stubby ML TL design on the net for the Jordan fullrange?
I saved this design off of the Full Range Driver Forum. Normally I would just link but the archives are unavailable. It was created by GM and has has gotten good reviews from those who have built it (not that there could be any biases at play).
The original post follows.
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GM's butt kickin' little Jordan MLTL
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[ Full-Range Driver Forum ]
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Written by Jay at 30 Jan 2004 05:40:25:
As an answer to: Closed box with Jordan JX92S written by Toni at 29 Jan 2004 16:13:10:
Hi Toni
I built Jim Griffins small ported box and enjoyed it very much. More recently I built an MLTL design by GM using the same Jordan JX92S drivers and that is a killer little speaker. It has all of the smoothness and immediacy of the Griffin minimonitor but it is considerably more robust in its overall sound. The bottom end goes lower and has more balls giving the overall presentation a grander more expansive quality. The speaker is also narrower thant the Jordan site TL design which may appeal to those who wish to minimize the footprint of their speaker. Since my pair were placed close to the back wall they did not seem to need a BSC circuit, although I will include one as an option in my next pair. The first pair I built were in MDF and I am curently building a pair in 3/4" appleply with several improvements which I believe will get the best sound out of GM's cabinet design and the driver. I plan to post pictures in the next few weeks when the speakers are complete. The speaker likes a little power...at least 25 watts IMO.
I liked it very much using a Gaincard.
The speaker dimensions are here (GM please chime in if people have additional technical questions regarding your design):
L = 31.04"
S0/Sl = 6.97"w x 4.31"d
X0 = L*0.3590 (11.14")
vent = 2"dia x 5"L
stuffing = 0.54lb
Dave Jones said:I played around with Martin's software for about 5 minutes and came up with the graph below.
Looks nice. What are the specs?
It's a bit late now to reply, but... I did indeed mistake the measurements on the Jordan website for inches instead of centimeters, habit you know - forgot I was looking at an English site.
Sorry 'bout that,
Chris
Sorry 'bout that,
Chris
tgorham3 said:
Looks nice. What are the specs?
Here they are. No warantee expressed or implied. I literally didn't take over 5 minutes to do this.
Attachments
CREATIVE PACKAGING OF TRYM
With some creative packaging, like braced 0.5" baltic birch ply, a wider cabinet for the volume and port, and a little nip/tuck/offset, the Seas Trym might make 12".
The Trym is a 2 way, 2 driver loudspeaker kit utilizing the latest driver technology from the SEAS Excel product line. This kit uses a single W22EX001 22cm woofer and a T 25 CF OO2 "MILLENNIUM" tweeter. . It was designed to be relatively easy and economical to build, while still providing the very highest level of acoustical performance. The Trym was designed by Murray Zeligman. There are complete details on the web.
With some creative packaging, like braced 0.5" baltic birch ply, a wider cabinet for the volume and port, and a little nip/tuck/offset, the Seas Trym might make 12".
The Trym is a 2 way, 2 driver loudspeaker kit utilizing the latest driver technology from the SEAS Excel product line. This kit uses a single W22EX001 22cm woofer and a T 25 CF OO2 "MILLENNIUM" tweeter. . It was designed to be relatively easy and economical to build, while still providing the very highest level of acoustical performance. The Trym was designed by Murray Zeligman. There are complete details on the web.
OK - I pulled the trigger last night and have two Jordan JX92s' on their way to me. Now I need to design adn build the cabinet for them. Here's what I am thinking... Can someone check my math?
I figured the 12.5 cubic liter design will give me the most bass response. Being an American, I can't think in metric, so I am shooting for 762 cubic inches of interior volume. Given my 12" height requirement and 3/4" MDF, that puts my interior dimensions @ 10.5" H x 7.75" W x 9.25" D. So my questions are:
1) Port? How big, and long and where?
2) Resistors, Inductors? It's all greek to me...
3) Should I try and design in the 30 degree angle that Jordan shows on their website into my box?
4) Bracing? Is it necessary for a box this small?
5) What else am I missing???
Thank you all again...
Thanks.
I figured the 12.5 cubic liter design will give me the most bass response. Being an American, I can't think in metric, so I am shooting for 762 cubic inches of interior volume. Given my 12" height requirement and 3/4" MDF, that puts my interior dimensions @ 10.5" H x 7.75" W x 9.25" D. So my questions are:
1) Port? How big, and long and where?
2) Resistors, Inductors? It's all greek to me...
3) Should I try and design in the 30 degree angle that Jordan shows on their website into my box?
4) Bracing? Is it necessary for a box this small?
5) What else am I missing???
Thank you all again...
Thanks.
Pure Bravery
That was brave. Congratulations! Now go to www.ellisaudio.com and download his cabinet building instructions, a 20 page pdf file of excellent detail, for moral support. The 30 degreed would depend on where you are going to be sitting relative to the bookshelf. If you want the speaker to stay flush on the shelf and you are sitting across from it 2.25 yards away, then yes. I favor an overly thick well braced cabinet like the North Creek Ikemo. That would mean 3/4" x 2 all around. However, you can use strategically placed broom handle.
If you do a search for metric calculator, you will find some conversion info for the Jordan box. Dr. Jim Griffin built one last year that should give you your internal volume and port information. He also should solve any electronic issues.
Yellow glue and a roller seem to be the way to go with veneer. Check out the woodworking video up above in this thread. Let us know step by step how you are doing. There are plenty of woodworking spazzes to go along with the experts. Best of luck. Phil
That was brave. Congratulations! Now go to www.ellisaudio.com and download his cabinet building instructions, a 20 page pdf file of excellent detail, for moral support. The 30 degreed would depend on where you are going to be sitting relative to the bookshelf. If you want the speaker to stay flush on the shelf and you are sitting across from it 2.25 yards away, then yes. I favor an overly thick well braced cabinet like the North Creek Ikemo. That would mean 3/4" x 2 all around. However, you can use strategically placed broom handle.
If you do a search for metric calculator, you will find some conversion info for the Jordan box. Dr. Jim Griffin built one last year that should give you your internal volume and port information. He also should solve any electronic issues.
Yellow glue and a roller seem to be the way to go with veneer. Check out the woodworking video up above in this thread. Let us know step by step how you are doing. There are plenty of woodworking spazzes to go along with the experts. Best of luck. Phil
Re: Pure Bravery
the drivers.
<http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=JX92SCAB>
Here is a place where you can buy custom made cabinets andmacmeech said:That was brave. Congratulations! Now go to www.ellisaudio.com and download his cabinet building instructions, a 20 page pdf file of excellent detail, for moral support. The 30 degreed would depend on where you are going to be sitting relative to the bookshelf. If you want the speaker to stay flush on the shelf and you are sitting across from it 2.25 yards away, then yes. I favor an overly thick well braced cabinet like the North Creek Ikemo. That would mean 3/4" x 2 all around. However, you can use strategically placed broom handle.
If you do a search for metric calculator, you will find some conversion info for the Jordan box. Dr. Jim Griffin built one last year that should give you your internal volume and port information. He also should solve any electronic issues.
Yellow glue and a roller seem to be the way to go with veneer. Check out the woodworking video up above in this thread. Let us know step by step how you are doing. There are plenty of woodworking spazzes to go along with the experts. Best of luck. Phil
the drivers.
<http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=JX92SCAB>
Re: So my questions are:
> 1) Port? How big, and long and where?
With 12.5 liters, I would probably go with a gradual roll off, not unlike the EJ Jordan bookshelf design, using a 42 hz tuning. In order to keep the port from being too long for the cabinet depth, I would use *TWO* one inch diameter ports of about 4.6 inches. Placement? Since they must to be on the front baffle for a bookshelf, I'd let your own sense of aesthetics drive port placement. Sonically, I don't think it will make much difference.
> 2) Resistors, Inductors? It's all greek to me...
Because you will be using the speakers in a bookshelf (right?), I wouldn't worry about baffle step correction until careful listening suggests that you really need it. You've already jumped into the less is more school selecting a full range driver, you might as well try to be as much of a purist as possible. If you can keep a component out of the chain, do so.
> 3) Should I try and design in the 30 degree angle that Jordan shows on their website into my box?
I would rather just tilt my enclosures and keep construction as simple as possible. I probably only toe in my TLs 15 degrees if at all, but I'm not certain if you can generalize in room placement with bookshelf placement.
> 4) Bracing? Is it necessary for a box this small?
The classic trade off is to keep the enclosure as stiff as possible and as low mass as possible. My bias would be to use a good quality half inch ply and brace rather than use, say, the one inch stair tread MDF that some builders swear by unbraced. Be careful not to end up with ports and braces trying to occupy the same space.
> 5) What else am I missing???
You might as well start breaking the driver in as soon as you get them. Don't wait until you have completed "labor of love" cabinets before you fire them up. It will make you crazy when you plunk the drivers into your shiney new enclosures only to have them sound "hi fi". The Jordan's don't sound badly out of the box, but they do sound considerably more natural after a hundred or so hours of run in. Initially they sound like metal cones. Overtime, there is just the music.
> 1) Port? How big, and long and where?
With 12.5 liters, I would probably go with a gradual roll off, not unlike the EJ Jordan bookshelf design, using a 42 hz tuning. In order to keep the port from being too long for the cabinet depth, I would use *TWO* one inch diameter ports of about 4.6 inches. Placement? Since they must to be on the front baffle for a bookshelf, I'd let your own sense of aesthetics drive port placement. Sonically, I don't think it will make much difference.
> 2) Resistors, Inductors? It's all greek to me...
Because you will be using the speakers in a bookshelf (right?), I wouldn't worry about baffle step correction until careful listening suggests that you really need it. You've already jumped into the less is more school selecting a full range driver, you might as well try to be as much of a purist as possible. If you can keep a component out of the chain, do so.
> 3) Should I try and design in the 30 degree angle that Jordan shows on their website into my box?
I would rather just tilt my enclosures and keep construction as simple as possible. I probably only toe in my TLs 15 degrees if at all, but I'm not certain if you can generalize in room placement with bookshelf placement.
> 4) Bracing? Is it necessary for a box this small?
The classic trade off is to keep the enclosure as stiff as possible and as low mass as possible. My bias would be to use a good quality half inch ply and brace rather than use, say, the one inch stair tread MDF that some builders swear by unbraced. Be careful not to end up with ports and braces trying to occupy the same space.
> 5) What else am I missing???
You might as well start breaking the driver in as soon as you get them. Don't wait until you have completed "labor of love" cabinets before you fire them up. It will make you crazy when you plunk the drivers into your shiney new enclosures only to have them sound "hi fi". The Jordan's don't sound badly out of the box, but they do sound considerably more natural after a hundred or so hours of run in. Initially they sound like metal cones. Overtime, there is just the music.
Re: Re: So my questions are:
Although you may choose not to use a baffle-step correction circuit initially, you might want to plan for adding one inside the cabinet later. Otherwise you would have to hook it up external to the speaker. My Ariels have external crossovers, which I find a little inconvenient. The new Locusts have a BSC inside. I glued the inductor (coil) onto the bottom of the cabinet, but I can change out the other components, because they are attached to the back of the input cup.
You could calculate how big an inductor you need, based on the size of the front panel and the speaker, then put the inductor in the cabinet when you seal it up. Run wires from it to where you can get at when you remove the input cup, but don't wire it into the circuit. If you never need the BSC, you will have squandered a few bucks, but hey, you got the dough.
Just a thought from a relative newbie.
Although you may choose not to use a baffle-step correction circuit initially, you might want to plan for adding one inside the cabinet later. Otherwise you would have to hook it up external to the speaker. My Ariels have external crossovers, which I find a little inconvenient. The new Locusts have a BSC inside. I glued the inductor (coil) onto the bottom of the cabinet, but I can change out the other components, because they are attached to the back of the input cup.
You could calculate how big an inductor you need, based on the size of the front panel and the speaker, then put the inductor in the cabinet when you seal it up. Run wires from it to where you can get at when you remove the input cup, but don't wire it into the circuit. If you never need the BSC, you will have squandered a few bucks, but hey, you got the dough.
Just a thought from a relative newbie.
On the other hand one of the appealing things about his setup is that he doesn't need BSC, so why have the thing there if he doesn't (maybe ever, need it) He can always remove the driverand add the inductor if he ever needs it later. He probably won't though, because these are made for a specific location..
Variac said:On the other hand one of the appealing things about his setup is that he doesn't need BSC, so why have the thing there if he doesn't (maybe ever, need it) He can always remove the driverand add the inductor if he ever needs it later. He probably won't though, because these are made for a specific location..
He can remove the driver. Duh. I just built a tower with a 4" driver, and that was not an option. I couldn't snake my hand and forearm through. But his is not like that.
Duh, again.
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