I was out the other day shopping for new bookshelf speakers for my family room and listened to the B&W Nautilus 805's. I was sure those were the speakers for me (I'd find a way to make them fit...) until I heard the price ($2500/pr). I have no problem paying for fine audio equipment when I know I'll have the flexibilty in room placement to get the most out of it. However, these are speakers that (because of the WAF) will be placed on a shelf in a bookcase. So, my mind started thinking and I have been wanting to build a pair of speakers for a while and I thought that there must be a great sounding bookshelf DIY speaker kit out there that would provide great sound at a more reasonable price.
Below are a few of the confines of the project:
Budget - None (more interested in sound quality, but would like to stay under $1,000)
Room size = 18' x 21'
Shelf Size = 12.25" h x 9.75" d
Source = Audiophile grade through Bryston Amp (music only)
Sub = None at this time
DIY Experience = None
Woodworking experience = Extensive (building reproduction furniture - full shop in basement)
Electrical Experience - None (building a crossover may be a bit much for my first project)
I have searched through the archives, but most of the suggestions center around boxes that are 14-19" tall. Would the sound quality suffer if I turned a taller speaker on its side?
Any suggestions for great small kits out there? I'd prefer one where I could buy a prebuilt crossover...
Thanks!
Below are a few of the confines of the project:
Budget - None (more interested in sound quality, but would like to stay under $1,000)
Room size = 18' x 21'
Shelf Size = 12.25" h x 9.75" d
Source = Audiophile grade through Bryston Amp (music only)
Sub = None at this time
DIY Experience = None
Woodworking experience = Extensive (building reproduction furniture - full shop in basement)
Electrical Experience - None (building a crossover may be a bit much for my first project)
I have searched through the archives, but most of the suggestions center around boxes that are 14-19" tall. Would the sound quality suffer if I turned a taller speaker on its side?
Any suggestions for great small kits out there? I'd prefer one where I could buy a prebuilt crossover...
Thanks!
Some Considerations
A traditional 2 way turned on it's side will likely suffer some issues with phase and imaging. If you want a full range speaker, you'll be hard pressed to fit a traditional 6-7" woofer and 4" tweeter into a 12" high box and get adequate box volume for bass -- and have room for WAF approved grills. With a sub you would have more options by using 4-5" woofer. Morel makes some excellent small faced tweeters that would give you a bit more flexibility.
There are also designs using the SEAS coaxial drivers that would possibly fit your shelf. I've used one for a center channel.
http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/
A traditional 2 way turned on it's side will likely suffer some issues with phase and imaging. If you want a full range speaker, you'll be hard pressed to fit a traditional 6-7" woofer and 4" tweeter into a 12" high box and get adequate box volume for bass -- and have room for WAF approved grills. With a sub you would have more options by using 4-5" woofer. Morel makes some excellent small faced tweeters that would give you a bit more flexibility.
There are also designs using the SEAS coaxial drivers that would possibly fit your shelf. I've used one for a center channel.
http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/
Your limitations work a lot (IMO) against the idea of "great sound". You will have to go with a front ported (or sealed) design, but even then, the model's characteristics and performance will be severely affected by the placement inside the bookshelf. Maybe you'd be better off looking for an in-wall solution.
That being said, try the following links for a start:
PartsExpress
SpeakerCity
Search around, maybe you'll see something you can use.
Or maybe you could find to incorporate the enclosure as an integral part of the bookshelf, but I have no idea if it can be done and/or if it's worth it. (I'm clueless, y'know 😀 )
Good luck.
That being said, try the following links for a start:
PartsExpress
SpeakerCity
Search around, maybe you'll see something you can use.
Or maybe you could find to incorporate the enclosure as an integral part of the bookshelf, but I have no idea if it can be done and/or if it's worth it. (I'm clueless, y'know 😀 )
Good luck.
You're actually in a pretty good position to start building speakers. By far the most difficult part for me to learn was the woodworking aspect, but I guess you've got that knocked. Constructing the crossovers really isn't too dificult so don't let that discourage you. Here is a tutorial on how to assembly crossovers. I would recommend having a look at Tony Gee's site and browsing through his projects to see if you can find one you like. Best of luck, I think you'll be very happy if you decide to go the DIY route. Don't let your high priced budget keep you from looking at some very good lower priced DIY designs. Just because the total for the speaker parts doesn't add up to near $1,000 doesn't mean that the speakers don't sound great.
try single driver design
partsexpress has 4 inch tang band drivers (w4-654s or 616s) run numbers at linear team online calculator. http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=newdriver for the 654s I had id 7.5 inch wide, 8.75 deep and 11 tall for about 56Hz you may want to run mjk quarterwave sheets I don't have windows I can't I have a mac
partsexpress has 4 inch tang band drivers (w4-654s or 616s) run numbers at linear team online calculator. http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=newdriver for the 654s I had id 7.5 inch wide, 8.75 deep and 11 tall for about 56Hz you may want to run mjk quarterwave sheets I don't have windows I can't I have a mac
Thank you all for the suggestions. I have taken a look at most of the PartsExpress and SpeakerCity kits and they all seem to be taller than the 12 inches I have to play with.
What happens to the sound quality when I lay one of those on its side?
I know it's not DIY, but I saw a raving review of Klipsch's RB-75 (which would work on its side). It's front ported so it shoudl deal with the tight encloser better than most. It runs about $875. Will the same money spent on a DIY solution outperform the Klipsch?
Thanks.
What happens to the sound quality when I lay one of those on its side?
I know it's not DIY, but I saw a raving review of Klipsch's RB-75 (which would work on its side). It's front ported so it shoudl deal with the tight encloser better than most. It runs about $875. Will the same money spent on a DIY solution outperform the Klipsch?
Thanks.
Use a tried and true design (or kit) with a tweeter and either a 5" or 6.5" mid. This will easily fit into a 12" height. Next to it place a separate enclosure with a 10" woofer. Bi-amp to keep the crossover around 120Hz or so.
This would meet the WAF, your budget and your physical constraints.
This would meet the WAF, your budget and your physical constraints.
Bill - Do you have any examples of such a beast? It sounds promising. Also, does anyone have any experience with the GR Criterion? It looks like it may do the trick as well. Thanks.
I've had more or less the same problem, also looked at the 805's and to speakers like Josheph Audio RM7i (which was reviewed better than the 805's)
In the end it was a price that I didn't wanted to pay and decided to build it myself. I've build a monitor with the bas unit of the RM7 and the tweeter of the EX-4 but that is too large for your shelf
It's possible to have good speakers in that size and enjoy music. Probably it is best though to add a small quality sub.
The placement of the speakers is not ideal. Even small speakers are often better of on a stand and not too close to the wall.
You mention that you're good in woodwork, that opens up a lot of possibilities in the creative area.
Units used: Bassmid Peerless HDS134, tweeter is Vifa ringradiator.
sub: Little Thumpy:
The size of the speakerboxes is 30 cm high and 16cm wide. For your purpose they are not suited because they are rear ported and will function sub optimal on a shelf. Be aware that if you want an hig-end passive filter that it will not fit into the box(it is in the foot of the stands in my case). The sub is 17,5 liters net volume end will go down to 35Hz(-3db point)
You could consider to take a smaller tweeter and have a slotted front port. I'm designing a smaller box with a Seas KT25N tweeter (48mm dia) and a Monacor SPH135KEP bassmid for a friend with the same problem as yours. The boxes are under construction so I can't post the results yet. They will have a slotted frontport.
I expect them to sound great but as always: the proof of the pudding is in the eating
In the end the WAF and best sound don't always mix to well. But if subwoofers are allowed than you can get very far. In my opinion the biggest problem is not even the size (although this is a problem to some extend) but the shelf.
In the end it was a price that I didn't wanted to pay and decided to build it myself. I've build a monitor with the bas unit of the RM7 and the tweeter of the EX-4 but that is too large for your shelf
It's possible to have good speakers in that size and enjoy music. Probably it is best though to add a small quality sub.
The placement of the speakers is not ideal. Even small speakers are often better of on a stand and not too close to the wall.
You mention that you're good in woodwork, that opens up a lot of possibilities in the creative area.
Units used: Bassmid Peerless HDS134, tweeter is Vifa ringradiator.
sub: Little Thumpy:
The size of the speakerboxes is 30 cm high and 16cm wide. For your purpose they are not suited because they are rear ported and will function sub optimal on a shelf. Be aware that if you want an hig-end passive filter that it will not fit into the box(it is in the foot of the stands in my case). The sub is 17,5 liters net volume end will go down to 35Hz(-3db point)
You could consider to take a smaller tweeter and have a slotted front port. I'm designing a smaller box with a Seas KT25N tweeter (48mm dia) and a Monacor SPH135KEP bassmid for a friend with the same problem as yours. The boxes are under construction so I can't post the results yet. They will have a slotted frontport.
I expect them to sound great but as always: the proof of the pudding is in the eating
In the end the WAF and best sound don't always mix to well. But if subwoofers are allowed than you can get very far. In my opinion the biggest problem is not even the size (although this is a problem to some extend) but the shelf.
I've got some experience with seas coax-es, and would rather advise not to use them, as the treble is rather of low quality. But those still are the best widely avaliable coax drivers for home-audio at a sane price.
Coax-es in a bookshelf are generally a great idea. You can also try looking at this webpage: http://member.newsguy.com/~stigerik/html/gnurk.htm -- it's a DIY project on the seas 6,5" coax. Maybe try seeking for second-hand PHL coax transducers. Or try to get the drivers from KEF and their old reference series as spare parts.
If not, 1k $ is quite a sum. DST has got a wide range of speakers to select from. Many ppl here used them (indoubt used them). Also try looking into Usher.
Coax-es in a bookshelf are generally a great idea. You can also try looking at this webpage: http://member.newsguy.com/~stigerik/html/gnurk.htm -- it's a DIY project on the seas 6,5" coax. Maybe try seeking for second-hand PHL coax transducers. Or try to get the drivers from KEF and their old reference series as spare parts.
If not, 1k $ is quite a sum. DST has got a wide range of speakers to select from. Many ppl here used them (indoubt used them). Also try looking into Usher.
DIYNewbie said:
The Criterion seems a little expensive. I'm sure you can do better with U.S. sources.
Little two ways abound and I'd leave it to someone more familiar with the choices to point you in the right direction. Personally, I'd pick a sealed system, Qt=.7 and F3 around 100 or so. With bi-amping, I'd roll that off electrically, 2nd order, F3 around 100 or so. This would result in Qt=.5, F6 around 100 or so. The electrical low pass for the woofer could then be 4th order, Q of .5, F6 around 100 or so. You wind up with a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley crossover.
A Mirage LFX-2 Electronic crossover would be my choice if you don't want to DIY one but I don't know if they make them anymore. There are other suitable units avaialble. All you then need to do is add is a woofer amplifier - plenty of choices there.
With 12.25" between shelves you could even use a 12" woofer.
This is basically what I do for one of my systems. Sounds great and will play fairly loudly.
>> Indoubt 🙂
I am very interested in your design, particularly how you achieved the curved cabinet. Do you have a construction diary or design page of some sort I could have a look at? I would really like to implement this type of shape in my next project.
Regards
Rod
I am very interested in your design, particularly how you achieved the curved cabinet. Do you have a construction diary or design page of some sort I could have a look at? I would really like to implement this type of shape in my next project.
Regards
Rod
Here's a kit speaker built to be placed on a wall or in a bookshelf.
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OkaraII/OkaraII.htm
The drivers are well proven
The designers are well proven
It's not cheap for the fanciest version, but a whole lot cheaper than the B+W
I don't see how you could go wrong with it.
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OkaraII/OkaraII.htm
The drivers are well proven
The designers are well proven
It's not cheap for the fanciest version, but a whole lot cheaper than the B+W
I don't see how you could go wrong with it.
Bookshelf Speaker Suggestions
Hi DIYnewbie,
I've had good results from the Audax Pro 13 kit below if you can still source the drivers. Works great with a well positioned sub and both projects would come in under your budget.
Cheers,
[PS] Will email you because the PDF seems to be too large!
Hi DIYnewbie,
I've had good results from the Audax Pro 13 kit below if you can still source the drivers. Works great with a well positioned sub and both projects would come in under your budget.
Cheers,
[PS] Will email you because the PDF seems to be too large!
I thkn the North Creek kit is quite good. While I have not heard it I have heard their Rhythm and that was quite good and the 9500 is in my opinion the best VFM of the SS tweeters. based on this I suspect you wont be disappointed besids it will have better VFM that B&W at least. also look at http://www.audioc.com/speakers/Emerald/Emerald LE2.html
Mike Dzurko is a good designer
then again one can also look at a fullrange like the Jordan JX92 or Fostex 6" (166/167) in a small 18 liter box. since these are fullranges the box can be wider than it is tall to get the required volume.
given that your box will be flat against the rear wall I would suggest a sealed box alignment with a low Qtc (about 0.5-0.6) and a F3 around 50Hz. the room otherwise will reinforce the bass so that the bass over powers the rest of the music. given that you will be limited to 5" (nominal dia) woofers I think 50Hz is about all one can reasonably get.
this kit could be modfied by make the box a bit wider and then you'd have enough baffle area toput the port on the front (if you offset the tweeter)
http://www.oregondv.com/AR-Com_Loudspeaker_Kit.htm
lastly the midbass drivers I would consider if you are look at a 12 liter box are the SEAS 5" Excel and SS's 15W/4531. any bigger (6"+) woofer will need a bigger box.
all the 6" driver I know like the 18W/4531 or 8531, and Focal's 6W4311 and 7V4212DB. require a bigger box. I like Focal DB woofer only because one can use the second voice coil to tune the bass response. mate anyone of these to a Raven or Fountek. most of these will work well in 20 liters. how deep can the box be?
Mike Dzurko is a good designer
then again one can also look at a fullrange like the Jordan JX92 or Fostex 6" (166/167) in a small 18 liter box. since these are fullranges the box can be wider than it is tall to get the required volume.
given that your box will be flat against the rear wall I would suggest a sealed box alignment with a low Qtc (about 0.5-0.6) and a F3 around 50Hz. the room otherwise will reinforce the bass so that the bass over powers the rest of the music. given that you will be limited to 5" (nominal dia) woofers I think 50Hz is about all one can reasonably get.
this kit could be modfied by make the box a bit wider and then you'd have enough baffle area toput the port on the front (if you offset the tweeter)
http://www.oregondv.com/AR-Com_Loudspeaker_Kit.htm
lastly the midbass drivers I would consider if you are look at a 12 liter box are the SEAS 5" Excel and SS's 15W/4531. any bigger (6"+) woofer will need a bigger box.
all the 6" driver I know like the 18W/4531 or 8531, and Focal's 6W4311 and 7V4212DB. require a bigger box. I like Focal DB woofer only because one can use the second voice coil to tune the bass response. mate anyone of these to a Raven or Fountek. most of these will work well in 20 liters. how deep can the box be?
I certainly appreciate all of the input so far. I am constantly amazed by the depth of knowledge on this board. I am leaning towards the Northcreek kit, but I do have a few concerns.
1) If I throw a sub into the mix, how does that change the suggestions provided?
2) Since this is my first attempt at a DIY speaker, am I better off building a cheaper kit just to get my feet wet?
3) As DIY'ers, how do you get around the fact that you can't go hear these speakers before laying down several hundred dollars? There have been a number of times I have gone to a store with my mind pretty much made up (by reading reviews) only to hear the speaker and be dissapointed.
4) Finally, and I know this is tough to quantify, but how much better will a DIY kit speaker sound than a commercial model? Does $300 of DIY = $1,000 of commercial?
Thanks again - keep the suggestions coming...
1) If I throw a sub into the mix, how does that change the suggestions provided?
2) Since this is my first attempt at a DIY speaker, am I better off building a cheaper kit just to get my feet wet?
3) As DIY'ers, how do you get around the fact that you can't go hear these speakers before laying down several hundred dollars? There have been a number of times I have gone to a store with my mind pretty much made up (by reading reviews) only to hear the speaker and be dissapointed.
4) Finally, and I know this is tough to quantify, but how much better will a DIY kit speaker sound than a commercial model? Does $300 of DIY = $1,000 of commercial?
Thanks again - keep the suggestions coming...
DIYNewbie,
FWIW, I'm taking the plunge as well. I'm getting the Okaras built for me soup to nuts, which costs more for the cabinets and assembly, but I have peace of mind that they are done correctly, and it still is cheaper than a comparable brick & mortar unit. I've heard the drivers (I'm getting the Scanspeak 9500 tweet) in other speakers so I have a clue on how it will sound, plus I've heard some of the other speakers it has been compared to, so I'm familiar with their sonic signature.
It should be a darn good bookshelf, if not one of the best for the $$ spent. Yah, George appears to really know his stuff.
That being said, if you definitely going to put them in a bookshelf, you may want to consider a sealed design, where a sub becomes almost mandatory. NorthCreek has a brand new design for those circumstances too (the Echo?)
-Robert
FWIW, I'm taking the plunge as well. I'm getting the Okaras built for me soup to nuts, which costs more for the cabinets and assembly, but I have peace of mind that they are done correctly, and it still is cheaper than a comparable brick & mortar unit. I've heard the drivers (I'm getting the Scanspeak 9500 tweet) in other speakers so I have a clue on how it will sound, plus I've heard some of the other speakers it has been compared to, so I'm familiar with their sonic signature.
It should be a darn good bookshelf, if not one of the best for the $$ spent. Yah, George appears to really know his stuff.
That being said, if you definitely going to put them in a bookshelf, you may want to consider a sealed design, where a sub becomes almost mandatory. NorthCreek has a brand new design for those circumstances too (the Echo?)
-Robert
IMHO $300-$400 in DIY may easily top $2000 commercial speakers. A lot of the value comes from the crossover design. By measuring driver response in a situation that simulates your final placement, baffle step & diffraction issues can be addressed in the crossover. Your musical taste can also be accomodated. (bright, warm, lot's of bass) You'll also have to decide what constitutes full range. You could go with a Peerless 850439 & Morel MDT40 in a 15W X 11H X 8.5D box and get F3 down to 48 Hz. Is that low enough?
With DIY you can't audition. You have to trust the designer (or work with him) on the design. Since most retail shops don't really look anything like your living room, even the stuff that sounds good in the shop may not sound good at home.
With a bookshelf , you will most likely have less depth of soundstage, and some unavoidable refelections. With a small sealed satellite and powered sub, you would be more likely to find the right bass balance and satellite placement -- but more wiring.
With DIY you can't audition. You have to trust the designer (or work with him) on the design. Since most retail shops don't really look anything like your living room, even the stuff that sounds good in the shop may not sound good at home.
With a bookshelf , you will most likely have less depth of soundstage, and some unavoidable refelections. With a small sealed satellite and powered sub, you would be more likely to find the right bass balance and satellite placement -- but more wiring.
rnoble said:
I have no site, at least not one where this project is on (just bare pics, not easy to access)
The Speakers are have competed in an Dutch DIY contest and were second (with 0.1 point) to Tony Gee's HATT mkIII. After the contest Tony helped me to develop a new serial filter which was a serious improvement.
I have only sketches, if you have a fax I'm willing to fax them. The Curved sides are made from three layers of 4mm Birch multiplex (that's right only 12 mm) But inside there is also 5mm leadbitumen and 5 mm of heavy carpet tile. There is a vertical an and horizontal brace of MDF and bottom/top/front/back are multilayered with 12mm birch multiplex and 6mm mdf. Because of the curved construction and the braces they become very rugged and stable. Also on all sides there is leadbitumen and carpet tile so the walls measure up to 28 mm.
The depth of the loudspeaker is 240mm and the curve starts 80mm from the front and has a radius of 350 mm. At 80 mm from the front the vertical brace is placed. This brace is also the holder of the reflexport. This curve applies to top and bottom. It also applies to the horizontal brace and the bottom and top layer of MDF, however you must recess them 18mm first (so the curve starts at 62mm from the front)
You must like puzzles to build this. You need 42 pieces of wood, 32 pieces of leadbitumen and 32 pieces of carpet tile.
After the box top/front/bottom/back and braces are put together you mus first put the leadbitumen (4 different pieces onto the first segment of the sidewall before you can put the side wall on. The first sheet is glued with normal woodglue and nailed with 1 cm bronze nails. The others are glued with contact glue.
It is not difficult but it takes a lot of time to build. The results are worth it, They have a very wide soundstage and very good bass extension for such a little speaker.
There are reviews on the net but they are in dutch
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