Hi Mooly and PMA, thanks for hard work and threads. When i see whats heard i guess it is warm biased buffer that makes the musicalty for green which i also prefered.
PMA am i right the 35cm coxial cable for direct is multi core for hot signal and multicore for signal ground (screen). If this is right and you are curious then try make a special 35cm cable with solid core for both hot signal and signal ground (core less than 0,6mm) and a type of screen only connected at sending end. Now listen Again in your setup where you also prefered green, and tell if blue had become more musical.
Best Regards Ricky
PMA am i right the 35cm coxial cable for direct is multi core for hot signal and multicore for signal ground (screen). If this is right and you are curious then try make a special 35cm cable with solid core for both hot signal and signal ground (core less than 0,6mm) and a type of screen only connected at sending end. Now listen Again in your setup where you also prefered green, and tell if blue had become more musical.
Best Regards Ricky
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Remember this: I have mentioned that I was sure I heard the sound of turntable so I guessed there was effort to fix its problems (tick and tock or wow and flutter).
Important: The quality of the recording (blue/green) ARE TERRIBLE. There is no way a CD on my system will sound that terrible. IMPOSSIBLE. This is approved by PMA himself that the AD/DA change the master.
If the file is not as bad as BLUE, there would be no reason for people to find "better" sound such as green. This is the important motive why when we don't use preamp, we try to use as good as possible component, as perfect as possible circuit.
Differencing in the classic sense is very unhelpful, as kgrlee amused himself pointing out. I even brickwall filtered out everything except the 10kHz - 20kHz range - still nothing useful! All you get, visually, is an attenuated version of the track ... no wonder Audio Diffmaker is useless for these things ...
The tracks are certainly different, but conventional techniques for analysing are far too crude to make sense of it - something to be worked on ...
The tracks are certainly different, but conventional techniques for analysing are far too crude to make sense of it - something to be worked on ...
Yes you are right. The same cable was used for both blue and green.
Regarding screen connected at sender end only and twisted pair used for single ended signal, I do not like it as such arrangement hugely catches all the possible and impossible HF mess above several MHz to infinity 😉. So, I stick with well shielded and well constructed coaxial cables.
That's true, but you have captured a sample in the existing green and blue files. If they sound different, there must be some evidence of why somewhere in the files. If the difference is due to HF then I think it might show up as lower IMD or reduced noise in the green diff.
I also just noticed the other RC filter in the preamp. So there are 2 extra low pass poles in the green chain not just the one.
In my experience that would make it sound smoother and cleaner but the capacitors could dilute the magic. Good reasons for people to pick one or the other according to taste.
Jay, I agree that there are 2 'ways' in audio: keep accepting the general degradation in sound that occurs, that is part and parcel of conventional methods of building and hooking together gear, which then means adding in some extra bits to 'nicefy' the sound, that one can live with - pick your 'candy'; or, go full out and eliminate every aspect that causes audible deterioration of the sound as it passes through the chain. The latter is much harder, and more frustrating, certainly at the moment - but ultimately is the more satisfying method in the long term ...
Sure, even slightest phase difference and slightest freq. dependent phase shift make it unusable.
Agree. I just spent a year to replace the op amps in my DAC's I/V converter with a discrete circuit.
Next improvement is to junk the whole system and build a power DAC.
Yes Frank, that's what it is.
One message that I have often mentioned is that even if you cannot hear that A is fatiguing, it doesn't mean you are free of the effect. In the long run you will pick up that effect. You will be bored. You cannot enjoy your system more often than you want (or used to be). You want to change your system. Etc.
Accept it, the more we chased "high-end" the farther we were from enjoyment. Up until that turning point where we know where we go wrong, and we know how to fix it.
20 years ago I came to my friend house and from a distance I heard a terrible sound. He set his EQ with "A" shape instead of the standard "V" shape. He argued that he preferred the sound that way and I tried hard to explain that it was not about preference bla bla bla...
"Trust your ears" is a popular quote among audiophiles. I think that is wrong. You have to trust good ears, not own ears.
How so? If it were a well-structured test, sure, but basic controls weren't in place and the "test" wasn't even vaguely set up for significance.
In this case, the diffs were good enough to pick up a 0.1dB difference in the low frequency roll off which I put down to an extra coupling capacitor in the path.
I did PM with this before the rightmark and circuits were posted.
And there is an extra coupling capacitor!
So the diffs are not completely useless.
I expect we just need a better visualization of the differences.
I'm disappointed that green won. I felt pretty sure that blue was most people's favourite colour.
Anyway, while I'm no statistician, I have calculated the probability of 11 or more green choices out of 16 by chance alone (ignoring "can't decide") to be approximately 11%. This falls somewhat short of being significant.
Anyway, while I'm no statistician, I have calculated the probability of 11 or more green choices out of 16 by chance alone (ignoring "can't decide") to be approximately 11%. This falls somewhat short of being significant.
The thing is, we now have 2 files which some people can differentiate fairly clearly. Next trick is - and there will be a prize, 😀, for the first opened, correct answer - discovering what is in there, in those 2 files, that is allowing that to happen ...? 😉
Stuart, what's wrong (technically)?
1) amplitudes were matched as close as possible, within almost 0.01dB
2) nothing 'exotic' or snake-oiled was tested, the added preamp almost does not affect parameters of the direct chain.
So what's wrong? ABX? True ABX cannot be performed this way in a web poll. Impossible.
I like the test as is and I like the comments people sent.
1) amplitudes were matched as close as possible, within almost 0.01dB
2) nothing 'exotic' or snake-oiled was tested, the added preamp almost does not affect parameters of the direct chain.
So what's wrong? ABX? True ABX cannot be performed this way in a web poll. Impossible.
I like the test as is and I like the comments people sent.
Ahh ... you missed a key condition: "what is in there, in those 2 files" - ya gotta read the fine print ... heh, heh, heh (in his best Vincent Price chuckle ...)
I know you would have run the test differently SY. No, what I'm trying to say is that people seem to know what they like when they hear it, and by the same token there are others that can not tell a difference. Its the age old thing that it doesn't matter how good something is or how often you are told how good something is, when you hear it "blind" your ears make the choice for you. You can't improve the original of anything, music, paintings, literature, but you can find many that prefer an "altered" version.
I listened probably 10 times to both files and the first pass I thought, hmmm I can't tell any difference here. But then I just sat back and relaxed as I listened and inexplicably Green" always got my attention. Had I been choosing between two integrated amps I would have said Green was "smoother", more detailed, perhaps a bit less aggressive on vocals.
Those type of comments appeared throughout the voting. I think some significance there 🙂
I second that.
For those who expressed a preference, the present result is well within pure chance .. so the nearest 'correct' answer is those who voted "I cannot decide".
However, I'm interested in whether there are any true golden pinnae in the 16 who expressed a preference. To check this hypothesis, the test is only 1/3 complete and presently has NO significance.
But I'm hoping Mooly & PMA will repeat the test using ABC and some secret mods to fool those who intend to cheat or guess 🙂
If we do this, we can find the true golden pinnae in this group. ONLY THEN do we pay close attention to what they say.
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No. If you are buying, trust YOUR ears and ignore what everyone else (including true golden pinnae) is saying.Jay said:
If you are making to sell however, you listen ONLY to the true golden pinnae and polish your Virgins & Unobtainium story for da deaf Golden Pinnae. 🙂
I think my 'Zen' description of how the best ears feel when they do well in DBLTs is similar to what you and Frank (fas42) describe.
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You mean ..you MEAN you didn't change the colour of the cable ??!!? 😱 The test is now COMPLETELY INVALID!!!PMA said:
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