Hi ! sorry for the question quite generic.
Can a two ways speaker really be satisfactory ?
I am focusing only speakers with conventional drivers ... not horns, ribbons, panels ecc. just cones and domes
These are very popular speakers. Broadly they fall in two categories:
1) small to mid size woofers (from 4" to 7") plus tweeters
2) larger woofers (8") plus tweeters.
To say it quickly ... in case 1) i miss the lows ... in case 2) i miss the mids
It seems to me that 3 ways are the minimun to cover decently the audio range ... with 4 ways being the optimum.
Do you feel the same ?
Thank you for any advice and suggestion.
Can a two ways speaker really be satisfactory ?
I am focusing only speakers with conventional drivers ... not horns, ribbons, panels ecc. just cones and domes
These are very popular speakers. Broadly they fall in two categories:
1) small to mid size woofers (from 4" to 7") plus tweeters
2) larger woofers (8") plus tweeters.
To say it quickly ... in case 1) i miss the lows ... in case 2) i miss the mids
It seems to me that 3 ways are the minimun to cover decently the audio range ... with 4 ways being the optimum.
Do you feel the same ?
Thank you for any advice and suggestion.
I went from a series of different 3-way designs to eventually 4-way.
The last 8-9 years I've only built 2-way designs, all of them with only some kind of "FR" unit with some kind of "bass" unit.
A 4-way setup *can* be quite good, but they often require a whole lot of fiddling about.
IMO "less is more", but there is no such thing as a TRUE fullrange speaker, so the minimum that can manage a wide frequency range with a certain degree of quality is a good 2-way.
Today, after having walked the path of FAST/WAW and enjoying every step, I think I would be able to make a very good 3-way system.
Will most likely never go back to 4-way designs.
The last 8-9 years I've only built 2-way designs, all of them with only some kind of "FR" unit with some kind of "bass" unit.
A 4-way setup *can* be quite good, but they often require a whole lot of fiddling about.
IMO "less is more", but there is no such thing as a TRUE fullrange speaker, so the minimum that can manage a wide frequency range with a certain degree of quality is a good 2-way.
Today, after having walked the path of FAST/WAW and enjoying every step, I think I would be able to make a very good 3-way system.
Will most likely never go back to 4-way designs.
@ Ginetto
If we are talking only about direct radiator systems, You've basically nailed it.
There are those who preach at least 5way or more as a necessity for hi-end reproduction but i really wouldn't know. I listened Dynaudio Axis 5 long time ago and while it didn't sound bad, it didn't blew me away. Maybe if they were dsp powered, maybe.
If we are talking only about direct radiator systems, You've basically nailed it.
There are those who preach at least 5way or more as a necessity for hi-end reproduction but i really wouldn't know. I listened Dynaudio Axis 5 long time ago and while it didn't sound bad, it didn't blew me away. Maybe if they were dsp powered, maybe.
No, no.
2 way speakers are definitely worth exploring.
It all depends on the implementation.
I've played (built) 4-ways, 3-ways, 2-ways and also FR, and they all have their strong and week points. Currently running a 2-way MTM in one room, a 3-way OB hybrid in another and a regular 2-way in my workshop.
To me 2-ways can be the most coherent and musical when they satisfy certain conditions.
2 way speakers are definitely worth exploring.
It all depends on the implementation.
I've played (built) 4-ways, 3-ways, 2-ways and also FR, and they all have their strong and week points. Currently running a 2-way MTM in one room, a 3-way OB hybrid in another and a regular 2-way in my workshop.
To me 2-ways can be the most coherent and musical when they satisfy certain conditions.
Hi ! thanks a lot for the kind and valuable reply. I used to listen from small woofers bookshelf speakers (no much bass below 100Hz).
Then at a friend house i listened the bass from very good 10" JBL woofers .... 😱😱😱 what i was missing 😱🙁
Especially instruments with a good bass content came alive.
I am very confused ... because i have a great respect clearly for sound engineers ... and then i see them mixing their masters on the Yamaha ns10 😕 when a ns1000 to say one would be more indicated.
I am still confused (actually since about 45 years now) about the mid type
Again ... a dome mid would maybe integrate better with the tweeter
A cone mid would take care of most of the midrange leaving only the very low bass to the woofer.
What would be your pick ?
The way I see it - a single driver will cover up to 1KHz, and then another will take over.
3-way is good for power handling but the transition (at around 120 - 300Hz) is a bit awkward to me.
Mid domes are great above 1kHz up to maybe 4-5kHz but I don't see the point using them. Good paper cones are doing a much better job in that range and lower IMHO.
I think the ideal would be a 10- 12 inch high SPL woofer up to 1K and then a CD in waveguide for the rest.
With a low order xover, preferably 1st order Series.
3-way is good for power handling but the transition (at around 120 - 300Hz) is a bit awkward to me.
Mid domes are great above 1kHz up to maybe 4-5kHz but I don't see the point using them. Good paper cones are doing a much better job in that range and lower IMHO.
I think the ideal would be a 10- 12 inch high SPL woofer up to 1K and then a CD in waveguide for the rest.
With a low order xover, preferably 1st order Series.
Hi ! yes ! the more the ways the more complex the design. I was thinking to add a sub one per side to a small to medium speaker. Maybe it is the easiest way
i listened some years ago to a speaker that i found very nice sounding ... a long ribbon driver plus a woofer (not exceptional i guess) I loved the sound a lot Maybe that is the way
Thank you very much Very useful i will look more on semi FR drivers then
I am a little worried to use a same driver to reproduce the very low bass and the mid bass ... i am afraid it could lead to distortion
Hi ! yes ! that is the systems i prefer I have been exposed to omni and dipoles but both left me puzzled ... i am a sick for virtual soundstage.
i like the Dappolito design concept both in midsize and big speakers a lot One example are the Dunlavy speakers for instance. They look 3 waysHi ! thanks for the valuable advice. May i ask which these certain conditions are ?
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IMO you still don't know what you're missing 😀
See the attached pictures, my PC speakers.
If a good 3way is what you crave, you would get very far with a good coax + bass driver.
If you're happy with a (for some of us) more moderate size, may I suggest something like the Faital 8HX230 in combination with the Faital 12PR320.
If you want cheaper or smaller there are other options, say something about size and price to give you more relevant suggestions.
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😱
very very impressive ... is that a coaxial the one on top ?why not put it between the woofers as per Dappolito concept ?
I like them a lot indeed anyway.
3 ways then ... 🙄
let's say that i am looking for something more FR .... with decent bass
Now that you mention Faital they are just here around the corner ... 😀
Thanks a lot for the very interesting advice.
Clearly a bigger coaxial like a Tannoy 12" would simplify things. After all they were good enough to have a place in many recording facilities ...
It is very complex I have always in mind this idea to reproduce the mids with a same driver ... instead of having a cut just in the middle of it 🙁😱
Those pc speakers are 2way. The driver on the top is among the first of the Fane15-300TC.
I have ordered the parts for my next living room speakers, a not yet manufactured 8" FR from SB and the Faital 12PR320.
If you want a 12" coax the Faital 12HX230 is one of the absolute best alternatives.
I have ordered the parts for my next living room speakers, a not yet manufactured 8" FR from SB and the Faital 12PR320.
If you want a 12" coax the Faital 12HX230 is one of the absolute best alternatives.
Thanks ! i see now ... a single dual-cone driver
yes ... i like coaxial a lot indeed. I have some small cheap Tannoy drivers ... up to 8" I like their sound
But honestly the idea of having just one big biamped and eqed ... that would be nice ... very nice
I do not understand why coaxial are not more popular They have just to make a hole in a big magnet and put some kind of compression driver
Not a big deal i guess
impressive ... nice
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Thanks ! i see now ... a single dual-cone driver
Close, but no. In fact it is actually a 15" triple cone driver. 😀
See picture.
I guess you can say that, but making a good coaxial is actually very, very hard.
There is a huge amount of mediocre coaxials, the 12HX230 is an excellent example of what is possible when a company gives it's best effort.
A golden standard.
Mating high quality polymer CD membranes with a 12" that can reach high enough and clean enough to make a proper crossover is not easy. The horn loading of the big driver is usually a limiting factor, and at the same time you frequently run into resonance issues on both the CD and the large driver.
Here's the 8" FR I'm waiting for.
Fullrange speaker SB Acoustics SB20FRPC30-8, impedance 8 ohm, 8 inch
Thread on the forum:
New SBA 8" Full Range driver
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Hi ! thank you very much indeed. Great driver indeed. To be honest the more i think about it and the more i would be willing to accept a FR compromise (limiting my requirements only from let's say 40 to 15kHz)
There is a useful video on Youtube with a sweep tone test.
i cannot say that i am listening anything above 14k 🙁 So .... 😱
this is very tempting indeed. It could very well be my final monitor ...
i have played only with small to mid size speakers
I will check the price
very interesting. I have always had the feeling that the secret of sound is in the horn design and construction
I heard an excellent sound (very excellent indeed) from a Acapella speaker from Germany at an audio fair ... they were playing this song here
Kyrie - Misa Criolla 1 - Jose Carreras - YouTube
moving ....
I guess the horn was made out of some kind of polymer ?
i see ... very challenging design. But the nice thing with compression drivers is that a very small mass is moved by a very huge magnet ... the driver distortion should be very low Horn clearly is contributing ... that is the problem
very interesting. But i start to lean towards compression drivers for the mid-highs
I will study the coaxial option ... i love it ... it could allow for a very compact speaker ... maybe with some eq to increase the low bass level
Many ways to build a speaker, it doesn't matter what you choose as long as you do it properly.
My hearing stops around 13700hz as well, last time I checked. Doubt it's gotten any better.
Down low it used to work to 22hz, not very important, most of that sound is noise from machines and big trucks. Just get annoyed when I am trying to listen in deep focus and some tractor or lorry drives around somewhere.
At any rate, have not really looked at the numbers yet, but if the 12hx230 is what you want, could be it can be convinced to go to around 40-45hz reasonably well. What size/dimensions enclosure would you like?
Just to avoid any potential misunderstanding. When I say this, I want to point out that the specific issue is that the big driver is essentially acting as a horn substitute for the compression driver. Since it is also a driver in itself that has to deal with lower frequencies, it is very difficult to make the horn loading quite as good as a proper horn.
My hearing stops around 13700hz as well, last time I checked. Doubt it's gotten any better.
Down low it used to work to 22hz, not very important, most of that sound is noise from machines and big trucks. Just get annoyed when I am trying to listen in deep focus and some tractor or lorry drives around somewhere.
At any rate, have not really looked at the numbers yet, but if the 12hx230 is what you want, could be it can be convinced to go to around 40-45hz reasonably well. What size/dimensions enclosure would you like?
How about a JBL Control 321C/CT 12" coaxial?
Was just looking at its brochure, and suggested it here for no particular reason.
Was just looking at its brochure, and suggested it here for no particular reason.
Managing a crossover in the low kHz would not be considered as important as consistent narrow directivity and low diffraction through the treble.
Impressive "PC-speakers" 😀 I think you dont need any tactile transducers under the seat with those.
What are those bottom bass drivers? 🙂
The drivers on the bottom are not in common sale as much as they used to. Special order apparently.
Fane 15-400 (not the LF version!)
SOVEREIGN 15-400
I made the box so if I need/wish to replace the drivers, I can change them out with for instance the Fane PRO 15-600 or several other drivers from other manufacturers.
Yes, very tactile, even at very low volume I feel it, the bass is not excessive by any means, if I am to describe it with two words: "accurate" and "dynamic"
Fane 15-400 (not the LF version!)
SOVEREIGN 15-400
I made the box so if I need/wish to replace the drivers, I can change them out with for instance the Fane PRO 15-600 or several other drivers from other manufacturers.
Yes, very tactile, even at very low volume I feel it, the bass is not excessive by any means, if I am to describe it with two words: "accurate" and "dynamic"