It's only relevant if you have the Alpair 7 drivers I designed it for; unfortunately, they are long-discontinued.
You mentioned the effortless bass. This is typical for speaker that have an active bass and release the main speaker from frequency in the 80-120 Hz range. Which I call sub woofer systems...
I have heard some passive constructions, that can do this too, but they were extremely large and the money, only for the amp used, would have bought a new car as well. So large speaker and no compromise amp may get you what you want. Both no option if I get you right.
You seem to see DIYS as second class HIFI, for kitchen and bedroom. This may be your problem. The huge advantage of a DIYS sub woofer it that you can make it fit your room, style and whatever, if you just accept a few rules.
I have heard some passive constructions, that can do this too, but they were extremely large and the money, only for the amp used, would have bought a new car as well. So large speaker and no compromise amp may get you what you want. Both no option if I get you right.
You seem to see DIYS as second class HIFI, for kitchen and bedroom. This may be your problem. The huge advantage of a DIYS sub woofer it that you can make it fit your room, style and whatever, if you just accept a few rules.
Not second class, just no room for sub-woofers in those spaces. Also I see no need for them if the two main speakers are well made, including those designed by the very many capable DIYers here.
Still learning acronyms here, is "WAW" and a "1.5 system" the same thing? Is there any downside to both drivers sharing the same cabinet in a WAW/1.5 design?
How would the SB 8 inch wide band "cheap monster" current being raved about on an adjacent post (the SB20FRPC-30-8) work if paired say in a 40L BR stand mount with a similar sized SB woofer? I am guessing/hoping no crossover needed? Would it have more "effortless bass" than Nandappe's TQWT design for the SB wide band on its own or indeed what Scott and Dave are currently working on with the Scanspeak?
Just trying to get a better understanding of some of the options.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...frpc30-8-8-fullrange-cheap-monster-ii.385062/
How would the SB 8 inch wide band "cheap monster" current being raved about on an adjacent post (the SB20FRPC-30-8) work if paired say in a 40L BR stand mount with a similar sized SB woofer? I am guessing/hoping no crossover needed? Would it have more "effortless bass" than Nandappe's TQWT design for the SB wide band on its own or indeed what Scott and Dave are currently working on with the Scanspeak?
Just trying to get a better understanding of some of the options.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...frpc30-8-8-fullrange-cheap-monster-ii.385062/
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I have an good idea for you, as what you write seems to show you have no idea how you could get the sound you would like to hear.
You talk about effortless bass and then mention FR chassis. This is so far apart as Godzilla and Bugs Bunny.
Take your self some time, dress up nicely and visit an expensive HIFI dealer. If you are kind enough and look capable to spent a few $, usually you will have a great time listening to many different speaker of all sizes. Mention you want deep, relaxed bass. If you don't find your sound, maybe visit a pro audio store and listen to some PA systems they have working (there always is one they will be happy to run).
Take some of your favorite CD's with you, that is nothing unusual.
This will give you an idea what kind of speaker of what size and construction will sound right for you.
If you do things right, a small two way with a 5" woofer and a 10" sub can give you realistic reproduction of a percussion set in a living room.
I build such a thing when my daughter learned how to play drums and had a CD where you have to reply what the teacher does.
You could hardly tell what was CD and what was her drum set.
You would need huge stereo speaker to do that without a sub, which doesn't have to be large.
You showed some Dynaudio speaker you own. It has a volume of 100 litre each. Those don't give you the desired sound, but you have tollerated them in your room. Why don't you give a two way + sub system, using up not even half the volume a chance? Better, deeper, distortion free bass doesn't come from smaller chassis than the four 8" of your Dynaudio speaker have!
I remember the Contour quite well, some hyped it for being "neutral and realistic", I called it a dynamic free, boring speaker, only for some "audiophile" recordings. Let them play the Stones or Madona and they simply give up. No fun speaker, expensive.
You may still get quite serious money for a vintage pair.
You talk about effortless bass and then mention FR chassis. This is so far apart as Godzilla and Bugs Bunny.
Take your self some time, dress up nicely and visit an expensive HIFI dealer. If you are kind enough and look capable to spent a few $, usually you will have a great time listening to many different speaker of all sizes. Mention you want deep, relaxed bass. If you don't find your sound, maybe visit a pro audio store and listen to some PA systems they have working (there always is one they will be happy to run).
Take some of your favorite CD's with you, that is nothing unusual.
This will give you an idea what kind of speaker of what size and construction will sound right for you.
If you do things right, a small two way with a 5" woofer and a 10" sub can give you realistic reproduction of a percussion set in a living room.
I build such a thing when my daughter learned how to play drums and had a CD where you have to reply what the teacher does.
You could hardly tell what was CD and what was her drum set.
You would need huge stereo speaker to do that without a sub, which doesn't have to be large.
You showed some Dynaudio speaker you own. It has a volume of 100 litre each. Those don't give you the desired sound, but you have tollerated them in your room. Why don't you give a two way + sub system, using up not even half the volume a chance? Better, deeper, distortion free bass doesn't come from smaller chassis than the four 8" of your Dynaudio speaker have!
I remember the Contour quite well, some hyped it for being "neutral and realistic", I called it a dynamic free, boring speaker, only for some "audiophile" recordings. Let them play the Stones or Madona and they simply give up. No fun speaker, expensive.
You may still get quite serious money for a vintage pair.
Throwing a couple of ideas out there for driver combos and layout:
8" paper Visaton (W200S)
+ 3" MA CHN-50P,
5x8" oval SB (x2?) + ribbon for an unusual skinny tower?
I've heard a v. good sounding Yamaha 8" + shallow waveguided dome in a 15~20L bookshelf, and the drivers didn't look very unobtainium. The overall execution was good and immersive. The bass thuds were a bit laggy, so I assume they had hidden vents somewhere to stretch the bottom octave. 10" woofers can do better, sealed, but the magic is probably from the trio of cone area, box volume, and helpful room coupling like a sturdy wide floor-standing box so it's not floating in mid-air. So you may be battling against physics if you want a 15L box floated up on a stand.
OTOH, small indoor venues sometimes do well with wall-mount / almost soffit designs near the corners. Corner loading can do wonders, so maybe 8" triangle stand-mounts that go in the corners?
8" paper Visaton (W200S)
+ 3" MA CHN-50P,
5x8" oval SB (x2?) + ribbon for an unusual skinny tower?
I've heard a v. good sounding Yamaha 8" + shallow waveguided dome in a 15~20L bookshelf, and the drivers didn't look very unobtainium. The overall execution was good and immersive. The bass thuds were a bit laggy, so I assume they had hidden vents somewhere to stretch the bottom octave. 10" woofers can do better, sealed, but the magic is probably from the trio of cone area, box volume, and helpful room coupling like a sturdy wide floor-standing box so it's not floating in mid-air. So you may be battling against physics if you want a 15L box floated up on a stand.
OTOH, small indoor venues sometimes do well with wall-mount / almost soffit designs near the corners. Corner loading can do wonders, so maybe 8" triangle stand-mounts that go in the corners?
No. Two quite different things. A 1.5 way is a system with 2 or more FRs with all but one cut-off to doi just bass. A WAW is a 2-way with a very low XO (200-500 Hz typically).
dave
Both are members here, you could check their posts for how far apart they are
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/members/godzilla.40108/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/members/bugs-bunny.267199/
dave
I wouldn't say "no idea" but in essence correct, which is why I'm here.
From what I have read here there are plenty of builders here who are happy with the bass response of their FR designs. SB's "full-range cheap monster" currently being discussed on another thread is just one recent example. FR's appeal because of their lack of crossovers and therefore ease of construction for new builders. My triangles (MAOP 7) and home streamer (Alpair 6) don't lack bass, they just lack "effortless" bass.
Already done, although I was not particularly well dressed. My commercial speakers of choice are B&Ws, their larger models have what I describe as "effortless bass" and if I was going the commercial route I would pick one of their stand mounts. To my ears they have no need for sub-woofers. But I'm here to see if I can have something DIY in the lounge which looks good and whilst not matching the sound of an expensive pair of speakers with $$$ R&D budgets behind them, gives an acceptable sound of the character that I'm looking for.
The Dynaudios were selected after extensive listening trials with a dealer (in Berlin as it happens) seeking a match with the Tact Millenium amplifier. We tried at least six speaker pairings. The Dynaudios responded superbly to the "pure digital" Millenium circuitry in a way that the others didn't. So you would need to listen to that combination before making a judgement. Yes they will be sold at some point but for downsizing reasons not because they don't sound good (because they do). I know I cannot reach the same bass response in 40 litres compared to 100 litres, but this exercise is about "how close can I get?" to the sound of the Dynaudios in a stand-mount that is preferably self-built.
Don't discount the benefits of multiple small subwoofers with either of your MA speakers or multiway speakers producing effortless bass. Smoothing room response counts for a lot. Multiple subs complete FR speakers and supplement the multiways effectively.
Thanks Skip Pack. I do understand the benefits of subwoofers and don't discount them as a possibility, it's just that due to space constraints and aesthetics the lounge has to serve many other purposes beyond a listening room and can only accommodate two sound-producing boxes, one hi-fi rack and associated cabling. Pic attached, I am looking to build something about the same width but half the height of the Dynaudios.
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If you were to build a vertical column perhaps 16 inches wide with 2 10" drivers, one near the top, one near the bottom in an open backed box, you could put an MA 10 or 11 in a sealed box on top of that. That would give you much better LF dispersion. You would need a good foot between the woofer box and the back wall for that to work, but it would get all the driver fronts a few inches more forward of the fireplace front. A good thing, I think. That might better things nicely. One sub tucked in a corner would be the next step, and a second a final step. All incremental as desired and possible.
That's an interesting suggestion, thank you. I have never heard of open-backed woofer boxes before, why is that better than sealed or BR? Do you have a design/photo/thread that you could point to so I can get a better idea? Could the two boxes be built as one so they appear as an integrated design? I think 2 x 8 inch drivers would probably be acceptable for my purposes to keep cabinet width down? Also as mentioned earlier the design will need to work in a smaller space without fireplaces etc. when downsizing becomes necessary.
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I don't have references at the tip of my fingers, but they are not uncommon with open baffles on top of them. If you extend side panels on an open baffle, the cancellation path become longer and the frequency response goes lower. Do this with with woofers having a high qts (.7 or so) and you can get down to 40 or so in room. John Busch did such thing, as did Dick Olsher and Darryl Hawthorne. As you lengthen the depth of the speaker (wider sides) other effects come into play, mostly making them less suitable toward the upper end of the range you hope to use. The box does not have to rectilinear in side view. Eight inch drivers that cost more then suitable ten inchers should work as long as they are high qts with more excursion.
I have 18" house label (probably Eminence) pro woofers in huge/deep open-backed boxes that worked very well with Altec 605Bs in open baffles. Used Crown XLS1002s with them just for the 18s. Easy to blend. These are obviously not for you, but that combo has been tried successfully with several other speakers on top of them. It seems to be an adaptable configuration.
I have 18" house label (probably Eminence) pro woofers in huge/deep open-backed boxes that worked very well with Altec 605Bs in open baffles. Used Crown XLS1002s with them just for the 18s. Easy to blend. These are obviously not for you, but that combo has been tried successfully with several other speakers on top of them. It seems to be an adaptable configuration.
Sorry for my comment on your Dynaudio speakers. The "Contour" has been around for decades, I referred to a version with a compareable design, but maybe 25 years older. They still look the same after all these years.
I can not comment on open baffle, my living situation doesn't fit this diffilcult to place principle. Same for the Ripol stuff. The room dictates where your speaker has to stand, not you. No pushing it to the back wall. Not even a little...
Your Dynaudio are quite slim speaker. To downsize them is not that simple. Do you think of smaller speakers? Placed on the floor?The tweeter-mid has to be at ear level, otherwise any soundstage will collapse.
So any replacement should be about the same height or 8-12" less, but not so wide.
I could think of a front T-M with a large woofer on the side. That way you could make them lower and slim down the front maybe by 2-3". You will not really notice the woofer if you look from the front.
A good 5 or 5.5" will give a nice reproduction, if you don't demand life concert level. If so, make it a M-T-M.
Seen from the side, if you wood working skills allow, make them deeper at the bottom for a save stand and some volume. This is basically a small two way with a sub integrated in the side wall. You find such constructions in the higher commercial price classes.
Moving the woofer down on the side doesn't matter, as long as it plays only form ca. 150 Hz down. You can even drive both woofer with a single amp, DSP'd to the room, as low frequency is mono anyhow.
From the front very compact, but still capable of real bass from the side mounted woofer. There are some specialized bass chassis that can deliver some serious punch. A single chassiscan match your Dynaudio double bass. 8" seems the minimum, 10" is better. Maybe you can design the same with a FR if this is your urgent desire.
I would advice you to listen to the FR quite some time before starting a large project. The typical "wow, so much from a single driver" impression may wears down quite fast. I have build some FR because of some kind of hype we had and soon noticed this effect.
I can not comment on open baffle, my living situation doesn't fit this diffilcult to place principle. Same for the Ripol stuff. The room dictates where your speaker has to stand, not you. No pushing it to the back wall. Not even a little...
Your Dynaudio are quite slim speaker. To downsize them is not that simple. Do you think of smaller speakers? Placed on the floor?The tweeter-mid has to be at ear level, otherwise any soundstage will collapse.
So any replacement should be about the same height or 8-12" less, but not so wide.
I could think of a front T-M with a large woofer on the side. That way you could make them lower and slim down the front maybe by 2-3". You will not really notice the woofer if you look from the front.
A good 5 or 5.5" will give a nice reproduction, if you don't demand life concert level. If so, make it a M-T-M.
Seen from the side, if you wood working skills allow, make them deeper at the bottom for a save stand and some volume. This is basically a small two way with a sub integrated in the side wall. You find such constructions in the higher commercial price classes.
Moving the woofer down on the side doesn't matter, as long as it plays only form ca. 150 Hz down. You can even drive both woofer with a single amp, DSP'd to the room, as low frequency is mono anyhow.
From the front very compact, but still capable of real bass from the side mounted woofer. There are some specialized bass chassis that can deliver some serious punch. A single chassiscan match your Dynaudio double bass. 8" seems the minimum, 10" is better. Maybe you can design the same with a FR if this is your urgent desire.
I would advice you to listen to the FR quite some time before starting a large project. The typical "wow, so much from a single driver" impression may wears down quite fast. I have build some FR because of some kind of hype we had and soon noticed this effect.
No problem, technology changes. The Dynaudios are Contour 3.3s, you maybe heard 3.2 or 3.1.
Skip Pack was talking about an "open backed box", you mention "open baffle". I am now confused as to whether you are both discussing the same thing. If open baffle, I agree, I don't have the space.
As mentioned, stand mounts of 40 litres plus or minus 20 litres. They must be capable of sitting on top of an entertainment unit in future without a stand. A side-mounted woofer would be fine, but whether TM or MTM I have never done crossovers before so would need guidance on this aspect. That is mainly why I have been pursuing a FR solution, ideally already built with drawings. But I am flexible, I'm looking for a good outcome ("effortless bass in a stand mount") and will look at any way to achieve it.
The 100-hour run-in time on MA drivers forces you to listen for quite some time - no fatigue so far on the MAOP 7 or Alpair 6. As mentioned above, technology changes and maybe this effect (if it exists) has been addressed in design changes since the initial "hype".
Leave them in the box,hook them up toa spare receiver, put them in the closet and let them play at low level for a week.
Changes can be quitre dramticat first but as you approach that time the change sbecomesmaller & smaller.
They may not tell you, but all FR with a spider need simialr break-in ...
The Mono-Suspension drivers take a 1/10th the time to break in — it is mostly the spider that takes the time.
dave
FWIW an open back box (common in consoles / radiograms back in the day), is essentially best viewed as a folded-up open baffle -until you reach the point where the polar pattern shifts away from the (theoretical) figure 8 dipole behaviour toward something more like a cardioid, which I suspect is what was being referred to above.
Dave, I bet you must be blue in the face telling people how to run in their MA drivers - why can't MA include run-in instructions with every MA sold? Thanks Scott for the clarification on open back boxes - I remember some guitar amps were like this.
I must admit to being a bit lost at the moment with so many interesting but disparate ideas being suggested. How is the 2-way design coming along?
I must admit to being a bit lost at the moment with so many interesting but disparate ideas being suggested. How is the 2-way design coming along?