The superstitious believes that a horn colors the sound and most "audiophiles" are superstitious.
Of course again it is all implementation.
Horns IMO is on the next plane of difficulty. For many here, no challenge no fun, though.
Okay okay, I can think of a major downside, which in some scenarios break the deal: size.
Of course again it is all implementation.
Horns IMO is on the next plane of difficulty. For many here, no challenge no fun, though.
Okay okay, I can think of a major downside, which in some scenarios break the deal: size.
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@Flaxxer my mind is thinking more clear now so I am ready to answer the first part, why aren't they used more often.
You can use horn loading over the entire audio spectrum, but a bass horn is humongous. So your bass is played by cone woofers. I believe even a real theater would use an array of cone woofers for the bass even if the mids and the highs are horns.
So if horns are heaven you can't stay there forever but at some frequency you are coming down to the earth. The transition is very hard to deal with.
Let's say Klipsch makes a consumer tower. The horn can only be so big because it is sold to the general consumer so it can only go down to let's say 2k. But it is hugely efficient, like 97dB@2.83V. What woofers do you match them with? I am working on a woofer which is 84.5dB right now. You may be required to have an array of woofers to match but you will no longer be price competitive. Or you may attenuate the CD a lot but that doesn't make much sense.
Then, the manufacturer will say, I spend all such effort only to tone down the CD, so let's go back to a 1" dome. Plus the marketing department will advise that consumers are biased and they believe horns give a harsh sound.
You can use horn loading over the entire audio spectrum, but a bass horn is humongous. So your bass is played by cone woofers. I believe even a real theater would use an array of cone woofers for the bass even if the mids and the highs are horns.
So if horns are heaven you can't stay there forever but at some frequency you are coming down to the earth. The transition is very hard to deal with.
Let's say Klipsch makes a consumer tower. The horn can only be so big because it is sold to the general consumer so it can only go down to let's say 2k. But it is hugely efficient, like 97dB@2.83V. What woofers do you match them with? I am working on a woofer which is 84.5dB right now. You may be required to have an array of woofers to match but you will no longer be price competitive. Or you may attenuate the CD a lot but that doesn't make much sense.
Then, the manufacturer will say, I spend all such effort only to tone down the CD, so let's go back to a 1" dome. Plus the marketing department will advise that consumers are biased and they believe horns give a harsh sound.
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Well cyberstudio .... Good read, but you missed kind of what I was asking. I do not have any issues with horns or waveguides, with one huge exception ... SIZE. I currently have an almost perfect application for a Beyma TPL-150H. But I could never live with the looks ... ever.
What I was asking, is why people don't use just the CDs, without the horn? Just the drivers themselves?
What I was asking, is why people don't use just the CDs, without the horn? Just the drivers themselves?
I know its old-fashioned, but a little reading on what a CD is, how it works, etc., wouldn't go amiss.
Sorry but that thought hasn't even crossed my mind. A CD is designed to mate with a horn, I can't see how that might be used alone and what advantage that might confer. That's how I totally misunderstood your question.
The reverse is useful: a traditional dome horn-loaded.
The reverse is useful: a traditional dome horn-loaded.
Inferior in what sence ? Care to elaborate ?
Amphion tweeters and Genelec tweeters are both Seas alu domes.
Sorry ... my ignorance showing itself again. I believed they could be used independently, without a horn attached. Was wondering how that would work out? I now have my answer. 😉
the ATC 3" dome can cross easy at 500hz and cover the range.
But ATC themselves say they cross at 2.1kz the SCM20PSL, and it is reported a good speaker...
Horns are good as Organ pipes, or to make very loud sounds. However good speakers designs use somewhat a limited wave guide for tweeters surrounds and sometimes midrange and woofers, especially in the back of the front box plate to better disperse the sound in the box.
But ATC themselves say they cross at 2.1kz the SCM20PSL, and it is reported a good speaker...
Horns are good as Organ pipes, or to make very loud sounds. However good speakers designs use somewhat a limited wave guide for tweeters surrounds and sometimes midrange and woofers, especially in the back of the front box plate to better disperse the sound in the box.
Got no issue with the tweeter as such but going by its size the waveguide loses control below 2.5k while the tweeter is crossed in at 1.5.
The fact that they eat tweeters is a design fault rather than a driver fault.
The woofer however is inferior to the Visaton. In fact I can't find anything to like about that one but it is only half the price of the highly regarded Visaton unit.
Yes and no.
The woofer in the SCM20 is basically the mid dome with a cone glued to it.
Surprisingly high distortion going by the plots I've seen supported by measurements of Amphions themselves.
Now that's a statement that can be analyzed.
Here are couple of distortion measurements of Amphion loudspeakers:
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/amphion_argon3/thd_90db.gif
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/amphion_argon_2/thd_90db.gif
Now here are Kef Blade 2, Harbeth Model 30 and Kef LS50:
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/images/stories/loudspeakermeasurements/kef_blade_two/thd_90db.gif
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/harbeth_30_domestic/thd_90db.gif
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/images/stories/loudspeakermeasurements/kef_ls50/thd_90db.gif
I don't see any worst/higher distortion measurement from loudspeakers that are highly regarded these days.
Lots of papers on distortion audibility from Geddes and Toole so taking that one parameter (that hasn't been proven correlated with sound quality) to call any loudspeaker inferior can be slippery.
Don't get me wrong - if i have an opportunity to choose from two drivers with only difference between them lower HD - i'll take the one with lower HD. But i accidentally listened AL130 and L15RLY and there is nothing AL130 does, that L15 can't. Without any audible advantage AL130 costs double the money of L15 ? I didn't buy it.
Stuff that i do mind with Amphion is extremely low impedance of almost all of their loudspeakers. 2 ohms at 15Khz - no thanks.
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Now, I'm not taking any offense in this. But claiming that Amphion is copying Visaton? I'd like to see some evidence, please. After all, Amphion have been doing just about the same thing since the turn of the millennium... I have no idea how long that Visaton kit has been "out there", but I have a hunch, that it's newer than a couple of decades.
The influence of a good extended bass response is often misunderstood. In the lower frequencies might not be so much musical information in the sence of instruments getting this low. Well, lots of electronic music nowadays dives into subsonic area but apart from that there is a lot of "environment" information down low. Down low is where you can hear the size of a room or concert hall. This information gets recorded, most people just never hear it with there small standmount loudspeakers. For real Highend audio reproduction extension to 50Hz is not nearly enough. It is like saying extension to 15kHz is high enough because most intruments never go that high and even most studio microphones don't go as high. No one wants that for obvious reasons but still many think they do not need any bass below 50Hz.
By bass extension I do not mean squeezing 30Hz out of a 6.5" cone or adding small heavy coned subwoofers that need a gigawatt of power before they start moving in the first place. That's not going to work. You need big easy moving area for it that plays lush and effortless, not a boombox or airpump. Then you'll hear bass extension is not a joke but a real important asset of music. reproduction.
There are a lot of things very wrong on the measurements... lot of distortion actually for 90db, look at the 95db ones, far from 'transparent' and a plateau of 5 db raise from 600 - 900 hz. No wonder they are good monitors to mix pop music for ipods 🙂
The phase is very good on the amphions
Yes, the room size is what is on the SACDs and on vinyl you can actually hear the double bass as an instrument and follow the music line. This is removed from digital products that I have.
Equalizers are not an option and pop/classical genres are irreconcilable.
Yes, the room size is what is on the SACDs and on vinyl you can actually hear the double bass as an instrument and follow the music line. This is removed from digital products that I have. Equalizers are not an option and pop/classical genres are irreconcilable.
You just have poor remasters! I have many CDs that still carry low bass, some of them even have been printed during this very millennium!
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