IMO you are overthinking this. The fact is you never completely eradicate vibration from reaching the tonearm. All you can do is attenuate the vibration as much as is possible. And there are many ways to accomplish this. Panzerholta or Permali are used extensively but these are expensive and can be difficult to machine without the correct tools.
Resin/bentonite has been tested to provide about the same damping factor as Permali. Resin is cheap and the bentonite I used is sold as kitty litter at the supermarket.
Here is link to a mold setup for an SP10 motor mounted plinth with the electronics separate. As I said I am planning to do this but slightly different as I want a timber frame. I will make a box and add the inserts then pour the resin/bentonite and the timber frame will remain but the inserts will be removed.
The Incredible Technics SP-10 Thread
The direct drive motor spins at 33rpm, which is half hertz, and is the same platter speed on ALL turntables ever made. So you tell me where is this vibration coming from? Unless the bearing, which ALL turntables have, is bad quality or faulty, worrying about direct-drive motor noise transmitting to the tonearm is a waste of time. Linn has created this myth and used this argument to belittle direct drive turntables for decades. And even to this date, as I eavesdropped at audio shows, belt drive turntable dealers are still using this argument to sway people from using DD tables. Too bad many people drank the Kool-aid.
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Posts 22 and 23 saved me a lot of typing, thanks.
I like staying in the "reasonable" and "sensible" areas of discussions regarding things that I know well.
Yet, far too many others seem to, as mentioned, "overthink" and obsess over subjects that I see no benefit in pursuing.
As was sometimes mentioned on the site, "it's a DIY Audio forum".
But alas, it's frequently habitated by nitpickers with their endless formulas for others to chew on and argue about.
I don't get into all that crap, mainly because it's like listening to rocket scientists around a table.
I like staying in the "reasonable" and "sensible" areas of discussions regarding things that I know well.
Yet, far too many others seem to, as mentioned, "overthink" and obsess over subjects that I see no benefit in pursuing.
As was sometimes mentioned on the site, "it's a DIY Audio forum".
But alas, it's frequently habitated by nitpickers with their endless formulas for others to chew on and argue about.
I don't get into all that crap, mainly because it's like listening to rocket scientists around a table.
Well, my dad was literally a rocket scientist, so there you have it.
Anyway, my over-thinking is due to my lack of knowledge and inquisitive nature. Without asking a bunch of questions, I'll never get answers.
I think one thing that's become clear is that the folks on this thread seem to feel that motor vibration from a high quality and property functioning direct drive motor and platter bearing will be negligible at worst. That's really helpful. Because a week ago I wouldn't have known one way or the other. (BTW, I understand the platter rotates at 33 1/3 or 45 cycles per minute, and that this is way below the audible spectrum. I mean, c'mon now... But I have no idea if there are other smaller vibrations that come from it. Apparently there aren't.)
I'm also gathering that mounting the tonearm (in my case via an arm board) to something like birch ply or MDF will be enough to pass the rigidity test. True? If so... I'm content to go off that knowledge and play around with various things from there.
One thing I've heard little about is what materials/layerings folks would recommend to improve upon the DD-8 plinth. I've received suggestions for specific materials or techniques, or links to other threads, but given the collective brain power from all you experts, I'm surprised to not have specific suggestions.
Anyone care to toss something specific out? If not, here's one to consider. Specially the Mk II design, which is something I can build in my garage:
A PLINTH - TURNTABLE BASE for TECHNICS SP-10 mk2/MkIII Direct Drive -SL-1000 DD Professional Studio Turntable
Anyway, my over-thinking is due to my lack of knowledge and inquisitive nature. Without asking a bunch of questions, I'll never get answers.
I think one thing that's become clear is that the folks on this thread seem to feel that motor vibration from a high quality and property functioning direct drive motor and platter bearing will be negligible at worst. That's really helpful. Because a week ago I wouldn't have known one way or the other. (BTW, I understand the platter rotates at 33 1/3 or 45 cycles per minute, and that this is way below the audible spectrum. I mean, c'mon now... But I have no idea if there are other smaller vibrations that come from it. Apparently there aren't.)
I'm also gathering that mounting the tonearm (in my case via an arm board) to something like birch ply or MDF will be enough to pass the rigidity test. True? If so... I'm content to go off that knowledge and play around with various things from there.
One thing I've heard little about is what materials/layerings folks would recommend to improve upon the DD-8 plinth. I've received suggestions for specific materials or techniques, or links to other threads, but given the collective brain power from all you experts, I'm surprised to not have specific suggestions.
Anyone care to toss something specific out? If not, here's one to consider. Specially the Mk II design, which is something I can build in my garage:
A PLINTH - TURNTABLE BASE for TECHNICS SP-10 mk2/MkIII Direct Drive -SL-1000 DD Professional Studio Turntable
Thanks for this. I'm afraid thought that I don't have the right tools to work with the resin bentonite mix. I think my wood working tools will get shredded.
wiseoldtech's post #16 says it all. There may have been a few inexpensive early DD turntables that left something to be desired but overall they have proven themselves to be very accurate.
Where all the BS about DD turntables originated from was the British audio press. Their motorcycle manufacturing industry was in serious decline after the introduction of the Japanese motorcycles showed just how bad their crap was. And I say that as a British motorcycle enthusiast.
When the Japanese showed up with these incredible DD techno marvels they did everything they could to bad mouth them. Talk of cogging and sounding bad was parroted by the British journalist to kill the sales of DD turntables and bolster the sales of British tables. Other journalist around the globe bought into it and of course if you manufactured belt drive tables than you promoted that line of BS as well. Heck, it's still going on.
I'm just happy to have my old Victor DD table and not worry about replacing rubbers bands or any of that nonsense. Hit start and a revolution later it's quartz locked. No vibration, no cogging.
BillWojo
Where all the BS about DD turntables originated from was the British audio press. Their motorcycle manufacturing industry was in serious decline after the introduction of the Japanese motorcycles showed just how bad their crap was. And I say that as a British motorcycle enthusiast.
When the Japanese showed up with these incredible DD techno marvels they did everything they could to bad mouth them. Talk of cogging and sounding bad was parroted by the British journalist to kill the sales of DD turntables and bolster the sales of British tables. Other journalist around the globe bought into it and of course if you manufactured belt drive tables than you promoted that line of BS as well. Heck, it's still going on.
I'm just happy to have my old Victor DD table and not worry about replacing rubbers bands or any of that nonsense. Hit start and a revolution later it's quartz locked. No vibration, no cogging.
BillWojo
Well, I'm obviously sold on direct drives cause I've already invested in the parts. So I don't need to be persuaded there.
If motor noise is basically nonexistent and not impacting the tonearm then I don't need to worry about that. And if materials such as MDF or baltic birch ply are rigid enough for mounting the tonearm then I'm good there too.
It's the vertical structure of the plinth I'm most interested in. Clearly one can do better than three layers of chipboard glued together, right?
Should I throw in a 2mm aluminum sheet somewhere? A layer of Corian perhaps? A layer of lasagna noodles?
If motor noise is basically nonexistent and not impacting the tonearm then I don't need to worry about that. And if materials such as MDF or baltic birch ply are rigid enough for mounting the tonearm then I'm good there too.
It's the vertical structure of the plinth I'm most interested in. Clearly one can do better than three layers of chipboard glued together, right?
Should I throw in a 2mm aluminum sheet somewhere? A layer of Corian perhaps? A layer of lasagna noodles?
And the same thing goes for the era that "single play" turntables came on the consumer scene.
Someone warned the public that "record changers" and stacking records were a "very bad thing".
So that sales of the single players increased.
Of course, it's all marketing nonsense geared towards the "tin foil hat" part of society.
Yikes. How is this even remotely helpful or related to this thread?
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I have been Investigating the Builds of DIY Plinths for a few years and in general today, there are materials used that are becoming the go to materials when the Damping Properties are a consideration for the design being produced.
There are measurements tables being produced by an individual who has a long term experience in recording the damping properties of materials, ranging from metals, wood, through to composites, such as Delrin and Polybentonite Resin
Panzerholz measures very well, and I think it is safe to say is a Benchmark.
Polybentonite Resin is close behind Panzerholz, but the Resin used must be a particular type of chemical.
A malleable material called Newplast, as a added material to another more structural material has a very positive effect on improving the the measurements recorded for a lesser measuring material in comparison to Panzerholz.
This method can broaden a option for materials selection, if improved Damping Measurements for used materials are part of the design.
There are few more materials being used that are worth looking at,
one being a more common material as a plinth material is MU25 Birch Plywood, it is a increased in compression Plywood, but not as much of a Densified Wood as Panzerholz.
Multi Lamination Bamboo Board such as Tigerwood is measuring in manner that makes it a seem worthy of using as a material for a Plinth Design.
None of the above will ensure that the Plinth will offer a Sonic Signature that suits an individuals unique preferences, but that is the wonder of Self Built Projects, a design can be incorporated to enable furthering of experiences.
A individual who I have discussed with about their Plinth Builds,
has used many materials, inclusive of materials mentioned above.
They do not use Panzerholz on their builds today,
they use MU25, with pockets formed in it, to add additional materials to be able to create a customised control of attenuation.
The common selected material to fill the pockets is Polybentonite Resin, even though some Plinths will be treated with other material.
A variant of a thickness of Corian is selected as a Top Plate.
This person is experiencing that using a combination of materials that will not be recognised as having the ideal damping characteristics, is producing a attenuation of the Plinth, that has the most pleasing Sonic for themselves and their Customers, who can be involved in selecting a material.
I have also recently seen a Panzerholz, MU25 and Newplast Combination of Materials used in a Plinth Design for a DD TT.
I am familiar with Panzerholz Plinths where a material is between 20 - 32mm Thickness used on DD TT's and have been very impressed with the performances being perceived.
My own design will be a close mimic of this, but I may take the time to further the experience, by producing a design with a option to add materials, to help with attenuation investigations.
Newplast will probably be the first, as it is removable, and can also act as a Plug for containing other Particles.
There are measurements tables being produced by an individual who has a long term experience in recording the damping properties of materials, ranging from metals, wood, through to composites, such as Delrin and Polybentonite Resin
Panzerholz measures very well, and I think it is safe to say is a Benchmark.
Polybentonite Resin is close behind Panzerholz, but the Resin used must be a particular type of chemical.
A malleable material called Newplast, as a added material to another more structural material has a very positive effect on improving the the measurements recorded for a lesser measuring material in comparison to Panzerholz.
This method can broaden a option for materials selection, if improved Damping Measurements for used materials are part of the design.
There are few more materials being used that are worth looking at,
one being a more common material as a plinth material is MU25 Birch Plywood, it is a increased in compression Plywood, but not as much of a Densified Wood as Panzerholz.
Multi Lamination Bamboo Board such as Tigerwood is measuring in manner that makes it a seem worthy of using as a material for a Plinth Design.
None of the above will ensure that the Plinth will offer a Sonic Signature that suits an individuals unique preferences, but that is the wonder of Self Built Projects, a design can be incorporated to enable furthering of experiences.
A individual who I have discussed with about their Plinth Builds,
has used many materials, inclusive of materials mentioned above.
They do not use Panzerholz on their builds today,
they use MU25, with pockets formed in it, to add additional materials to be able to create a customised control of attenuation.
The common selected material to fill the pockets is Polybentonite Resin, even though some Plinths will be treated with other material.
A variant of a thickness of Corian is selected as a Top Plate.
This person is experiencing that using a combination of materials that will not be recognised as having the ideal damping characteristics, is producing a attenuation of the Plinth, that has the most pleasing Sonic for themselves and their Customers, who can be involved in selecting a material.
I have also recently seen a Panzerholz, MU25 and Newplast Combination of Materials used in a Plinth Design for a DD TT.
I am familiar with Panzerholz Plinths where a material is between 20 - 32mm Thickness used on DD TT's and have been very impressed with the performances being perceived.
My own design will be a close mimic of this, but I may take the time to further the experience, by producing a design with a option to add materials, to help with attenuation investigations.
Newplast will probably be the first, as it is removable, and can also act as a Plug for containing other Particles.
You're new here.
Occasionally, topics wander...
And it's no stranger than several people sitting around and discussing things in person.
Thanks JohnnoG!
Panzerholz and Polybentonite Resin won't work as I don't have the tools. But MU25 plywood and multilaminated bamboo look like excellent options. I didn't know about those and will look into them.
Any recommendations on construction and layering? This is really the thing I'm puzzling over - how many layers, how thick, in what order, etc. I've seen so many different approaches that it's dizzying. I'd love a simple place to start from.
Thanks again.
Fair point. But good conversations usually come back around the topic at hand. And I'm clearly at the mercy of all you wise old tech gurus, so I'm really hoping you can offer some assistance along with the color commentary.
So for example, here's one option that's been suggested - via a different conversation:
Top layer: baltic birch
Second Layer: basswood
Third layer: baltic birch
Fourth layer: aluminum sheet 2mm
Fifth layer: baltic birth
Bottom layer: baltic birch
Glue: Titebond wood glue (not sure about aluminum to wood adhesive)
Is this a good starting point? If not, how would you modify? If it's a really bad starting point, what might you suggest instead?
Would MU25 or multilaminate bamboo improve possibly improve upon this (or a similar) design? And remember, panzerholz and bentonite resin aren't good options for me.
Original plinth is three layers of chipboard glued together. I know no one can say for certain what will be better. But there are sensible places to start and are really dumb places to start. Looking for some ideas on the former. Trying to avoid the latter.
Vibrations due to speaker feedback are tamed in numerous ways.
Common sense says that proper placement of the turntable and the furniture that its on is one basic solution.
Only careless numnuts would place their turntable near or on speakers.
Some people like high volume levels when playing their records.
I do, occasionally, at times.
A handy device that's simply marvelous, is the implimentation of a Sallen-Key sub-sonic filter sometimes talked about.
I built several for myself for my various systems.
It doesn't effect my musical enjoyment at all, but it does remove the power-robbing "below hearing" subsonics and speaker-pumping from turntable listening.
I demonstrated it to my neighbor who's got a Dual 701 (on its stock plinth) near his enormous AR LST speakers.
Mind you, he's "picky" about his system...and at times likes to crank up his system.
Kicking in the filter I loaned him, his Mcintosh amp ran cooler, his stylus didn't hop wildly anymore, and his woofers only emitted 25+ Hz music at room-shaking levels.
Common sense says that proper placement of the turntable and the furniture that its on is one basic solution.
Only careless numnuts would place their turntable near or on speakers.
Some people like high volume levels when playing their records.
I do, occasionally, at times.
A handy device that's simply marvelous, is the implimentation of a Sallen-Key sub-sonic filter sometimes talked about.
I built several for myself for my various systems.
It doesn't effect my musical enjoyment at all, but it does remove the power-robbing "below hearing" subsonics and speaker-pumping from turntable listening.
I demonstrated it to my neighbor who's got a Dual 701 (on its stock plinth) near his enormous AR LST speakers.
Mind you, he's "picky" about his system...and at times likes to crank up his system.
Kicking in the filter I loaned him, his Mcintosh amp ran cooler, his stylus didn't hop wildly anymore, and his woofers only emitted 25+ Hz music at room-shaking levels.
I have used strand woven bamboo for cladding speakers and it is the hardest on cutting tools, timber product that I have used in decades of timber work. It will blunt your saw blades and router bits in an instant. It is produced under heat in a hydraulic press, as is panzerholz. It is very hard and stiff, which may not be the best choice for a plinth.
Description
The three large insulators of the DDX-1000 form a unique absorber mechanism that not only eliminates entirely the hazards of external vibration, but also serves to isolate the arm from the turntable.
Up to three high quality arms may be mounted simultaneously, and tonearms are interchanged easily and quickly.
The power supply and transformer are completely isolated in a separate control unit, thus eliminating any feedback or hum interference.
These unique design concepts have been exhaustively researched and tested by our engineers.
Link: Library Downloads | Vinyl Engine
Care to illuminate on why you're right and Micro Seiki is wrong? Or... perhaps you are talking of isolation in some other manner.
The Micro Seiki DDX-1000 is a great looking table but it doesn't exactly have a reputation for being the best sounding table. I was searching for one a year or so ago and when I posted looking for opinions a few folks that I respect said that they had tried one and moved it on. Seems the tonearm mounting pods really don't work that well.
That said, if I found a really good deal on one.............
BillWojo
That said, if I found a really good deal on one.............
BillWojo
They're cool looking tables for sure. I'm not really interested in one either, I was just noting Micro Seiki's language for wiseoldtech given that he and they are - at least on the face of things - are saying exactly the opposite of each other.
Now, a DDX-1500 would be a different story: Micro Seiki DDX 1500 w/ MA 505 MKIII Toneram Extremely Rare High End Turntable | eBay
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Micro Seiki isn't wrong, it's how they word things. (as opposed to American language.)
I'll attempt to be as clear as possible here.
Those "isolators" mentioned are merely extensions of the main chassis that the motor is rigidly fastened to.
They additionally serve as feet that the whole mess sits on.
The 3 "arm mounts" described are not flexibly seperate from the motor as you would assume.
Because, and as I and kevinkr already stated, there cannot be any sort of mobility between the arm and platter........ period.
To so so would create a highly vulnerable weak point, rendering it to add distortion due to vibration, and for that matter, additional problems with tonearm stability and alignment.
So no, I stand by my original statements, and hope that finally clears up questions.
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