that's funny, I don't find the Satori analytical at all. I find it clean sounding but not attention grabbing. I'm never fully confident in my own or anyone elses opinions, just too many variables and often time and tastes can change.
I'd go with the scan design. Better drivers and you'll just have to decide for yourself about the HDS tweeter, it's always been polarizing. I've liked it since the first JKim (also polarizing lol) design that used them crossed at 1.7k to the amazing Usher 8945p.
Here is a quote about them both (Discovery 861 & SBA 761) from Tuii @ Youtube who bought both speakers ie. the ones that Troels Built. - read here
Tuii 1 year ago (edited)
"... I own the SBA-761 too, the actual set build by Troels. Uploaded a couple of videos of them playing as well. The Discovery 861 is far superior, in all disciplines, I nearly fell off my chair the first time I heard them! SBA761 combined membrane area = 284 cm2 / 90 dB sensitivity. Minimum impedance 3,7 ohm. Discovery861 combined membrane area = 374 cm2 / 91,5 dB sensitivity. Minimum impedance 4 ohm. The SBaccoustics drivers are tiny.. This is not me saying the SBA761 are bad, they are wonderful! it's just the Discovery861 are extraordinary!! Back when I first heard the Sba761 in 2019 I were blown away too, but this Discovery861 stands out as an 'mkii' a superior version of the same concept. Therefor I've already sold the SBA761. When the discovery861 and SBA761 are placed right next to each other, the discovery looks much larger, and it sounds much larger too. Discovery861 brings a level of scale and weight to Instruments, that the SBA761 are unable to, given it's small membrane area. And when it comes to finesse, timbre, tonality, resolving power, transients, micro details, soundstaging, etc etc, I also prefer the Discovery861. But I'll be honest and say, the SBA761 beats any commercial loudspeaker I've ever heard! It's that good! Troels always extracts every last drop of quality obtainable from the drivers. "
I know that guy, he is bit of a troll and very polarising character (he goes to other people threads to bash speakers he never has heard) so offcourse he would toot his own horn. I also have built discovery 861 and think it is a good kit for the price.
The tweeter is not that bad, but it is not that good either. I had to bypass caps with tweeter duelund pure copper and midrange k42y pio to rid too tight sound and have more warmth & smoothnes. After this it was good.
I was also attracted by the Discovery 861 based on price (expected) performance and I like the looks. Also the cabinet looks doable, and even better, there‘s a CNC cut cabinet kit available for these, the Ekta MKII and Ekta 7741, which would be very interesting too, but are so expensive…
You seem to be very skeptical of the Discovery 861 and have very deep knowledge of speaker design, and I would love to know what other designs you would consider a better alternative?
My use case is a stereo system with a pretty good and powerful solid state amp (Karan Acoustics KA180 MKII, app. €8000) and DAC (CHORD Hugo 2 + 2Go Streamer, app. €3500)
Music is a mix with focus on acoustic, orchestra and popular music.
Listening room most likely a smallish 15m2 room, alternatively a very large, irregular 50-60m2 attic room.
I currently use a 2-way ScanSpeak custom speaker with Classic 18W/8535-01 mid-bass and Classic D2904/950000 Tweeter, very inert closed cabinet, high quality x-over components and a faux 2,5 way design (boosted low bass).
The system has good imaging, especially very deep, but I feel it gets stressed with busy and/or louder music, especially in the midrange, and the bass could be tighter, more dynamic and extended. In short - I feel the speakers are the bottleneck in my system.
Somehow I feel the Ekta MKii would be an even better better match, but the costs for this speaker pair would be double the Discovery 861, which seems like a big risk to me, without hearing them.
I hope my thoughts come across more or less clear, and would love to hear your opinion!
Thanks for your consideration!
Here are some comments on what Giralfone wrote - cause I want people to have other perspectives.
Guessing how much bass there is in a speaker is guessing.
The idea with a closed cabinet for the top driver is to naturally roll off the bass a bit in the top driver, to deliver a pristine midrange without large movements in the driver for bass. (same as in a 3-way). The bottom driver only handles up to an estimated 300-500 hz where it is behind to roll off.
Guessing how much bass there is in a speaker is guessing.
Many large brands, such as Focal, KEF, Dynaudio, and Raidho, make 2.5-way speakers for a lot of money. The beauty is to not cur the Crossover in the middle of the midrange. But as always it is a tradeoff. Maybe the revelatory 851 is better for you.
I don't know if it is expensive, maybe the xcossover could be lower, but it seems Troels was really happy about the upper end (hz) performance of the 18w and the tweeter looks really linear from 2800 and up...I think you could critize the tweeter and driver integration for all 2.5 way speakers, but the benefit is that you avoid difficult integration I the middle of the spectrum, and cutting it in half. Many people actually enjoy the larger midranges.
Diffraction is often minor and can be mitigated; audibility is debated. Troels tested different designs
It is a matter of taste - Troels seemt to prefer LR2 crossovers as he think they offer a more natural sound and while the LR4 can look better on paper it oftens seems more dry and less lively. Also, the LR4 and waveguide and drivers closer some with its own issues, and is not a solution to fix all problems.
Agreed, there are no 30, 40 degree measurements.
Maybe Ralf can list the "better-behaved" speaker? I am not sure what you mean with boutique?
Lastly, listener preferences vary. Some prefer the coherence and simplicity of LR2 or 2.5-way designs, while others like the precision of LR4 or 3-way systems. The “best” approach is subjective and depends on the desired voicing and application
@Surfgeorge: Your audio budget priorities surprise me. 11.5K Euro for an Amp and a DAC/streamer and you're quibbling about the cost of a 2-3K Euro speaker kit? I have $3.5K into a CD player/ pre-amp/ amp and $3.5K total into one of Troels kits.
I agree that buying kits is a risk but I think you could get them to sound right to you.
I agree that buying kits is a risk but I think you could get them to sound right to you.
Don't know how they mesure but SB acoustics done 2 new opensource speakers with pfcr drivers: tifa 6 bookshelf with a sb26stac and sb16pfcr.
Tif8 with same tweeter and sb13pfcr+ 2*sb20pfcr.
Tif8 with same tweeter and sb13pfcr+ 2*sb20pfcr.
Thanks for your feedback!
It must look strange indeed, but for background information - I bought almost everything either used or in pre-series form at a very substantial discount, so I didn‘t spend as much as it seems… I could increase the budget, but one concern is that I would like to hear a Troels Gravesen speaker before fully committing to one of his higher priced designs.
Also, my life priorities and the flat I am living at are constraints.
I am really drawn to the Discovery 861, Ekta MKII, and Ekta 7741, with the Ekta-TL as a „wild card“
- The concern with the 861 is that it may not be the substantial upgrade from my current speakers which use ScanSpeak Classic drivers and HQ x-over components. Cost estimate Kit + wood = €1400 plus another €600 for a table saw…
- The concern with the Ekta MKII is regarding bass driver membrane area = bass performance, and whether the tweeter is holding it back. Cost estimate €3000 including CNC cabinets
- The concern with the Ekta 7741 is simply the cost - that‘s a massive invest, close to €5000 including CNC cabinets, veneer, etc.
- An alternative seems to be the Ekta-TL, at €2600 for the kit + wood + table saw maybe total €3.500. Would I be right to expect better and lower bass performance? But I find little conclusive information about the gains compared to the MKII
May I ask which of his designs you have built and what your findings were?
@Surfgeorge I would check Troels Discovery-4.
you can use your 18W/8535-01 back. Never listen to this speaker. But removing the lower frequencies will lead to less compression and the midrange will be better compare to your 2 way.
All reviews I have sawn of this speaker is that the bass is visseral. It also improve the overall perception of upper frequencies.
you can use your 18W/8535-01 back. Never listen to this speaker. But removing the lower frequencies will lead to less compression and the midrange will be better compare to your 2 way.
All reviews I have sawn of this speaker is that the bass is visseral. It also improve the overall perception of upper frequencies.
Hi Surfgeorge.
I have built 861, and have experience with classic drivers 8545. I love 861 to death, but it isn't more airy or detailed than classic papercone..
If you want higher level, you have to pay more.. sorry
I have built 861, and have experience with classic drivers 8545. I love 861 to death, but it isn't more airy or detailed than classic papercone..
If you want higher level, you have to pay more.. sorry
I built the 7741. Search for that on this site. Search for Etka mkII and Ekta 7741 on YouTube. You should read builders responses on Troel’s site.
My goal was to better my current speakers (Sonus Faber), not make the best speakers in the world.
I have a workshop so the build was just another piece of furniture (but this one makes sound).
I haven’t heard the 861 but I think it would be a good choice. Of course, there are other Troel’s kits that would sound better but they are not trivial to assemble. And you may not like the design choices/ compromises (sound). Highly resolving speakers also highlight poor recordings.
Good luck.
My goal was to better my current speakers (Sonus Faber), not make the best speakers in the world.
I have a workshop so the build was just another piece of furniture (but this one makes sound).
I haven’t heard the 861 but I think it would be a good choice. Of course, there are other Troel’s kits that would sound better but they are not trivial to assemble. And you may not like the design choices/ compromises (sound). Highly resolving speakers also highlight poor recordings.
Good luck.
Thanks a lot to all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences! Very helpful indeed! 👍
@pefpef The Discovery-4 really looks like visceral bass - I‘d need a new home for it though, and the woodwork looks really challenging.
@matsurus - Thanks for that extremely valuable feedback! In fact - based on what you write the 861 might still be an option. I do like my current speakers, they can be quite airy, but I feel they struggle when things get very busy, especially when combined with low frequencies.
I‘d expect the 861 to handle that a little better.
@mikewxyz - The Ekta 7741 looks like the best option in terms of size, looks, sound quality and easy build, especially with the CNC‘d cabinets. I am reasonably skilled, but don‘t have access to a wood workshop and proper tools, but would definitely enjoy the building process 🙂
Guys - you have given me more food for thought! Thanks again!
@pefpef The Discovery-4 really looks like visceral bass - I‘d need a new home for it though, and the woodwork looks really challenging.
@matsurus - Thanks for that extremely valuable feedback! In fact - based on what you write the 861 might still be an option. I do like my current speakers, they can be quite airy, but I feel they struggle when things get very busy, especially when combined with low frequencies.
I‘d expect the 861 to handle that a little better.
@mikewxyz - The Ekta 7741 looks like the best option in terms of size, looks, sound quality and easy build, especially with the CNC‘d cabinets. I am reasonably skilled, but don‘t have access to a wood workshop and proper tools, but would definitely enjoy the building process 🙂
Guys - you have given me more food for thought! Thanks again!