Hello to all,
Recently I’m thinking about tri-amp the 3 way loudspeakers that I’m planning to build, I know that the optimum way is with separated amps for each driver, but due the high costs of acquire 3 amps, I’m thinking about of an multi channel amp.
Appreciate very much the thoughts from more experienced people about this subject, do you think that with a multi channel amp, and a very nice crossover, the system still will provide the great advantages of an active multi-amplified system?
Will put here the equipments that I have in mind, in order to provide some context.
This are the speakers that I’m planning to build, in fact, already purchased the first drivers 🙂,
3 way: 12" woofer + radial horn + super tweeter
https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/recom_enclose/w400aII_encl.pdf
(the exact drivers are the showed on the third option plan)
Active Crossover:
http://www.accuphase.com/cat/f-15len.pdf or http://www.accuphase.com/cat/f-25en.pdf
F15-L appears for reasonable prices from time to time...
Now, the amp it’s the big question?
I noticed that if choose the multichannel amp, mostly of then are designed for home theaters or pro audio... what about HiFi Stereo?
Appreciate very much suggestions, vintage or actual in production...
This Accuphase from 2001: http://www.accuphase.com/cat/px-600e.pdf
Appears to be the logical option, when considering the crossover, but this don’t appear very often, but according to my researches, they appear from time to time in Japan, found some on online auctions that was sold for prices not so extravagant... still costly, but, considering the price of acquire separated amps for the same performance level, still worth it..
Anyway, that’s it, appreciate very much all the thoughts about the subject, advices, amps suggestions...
Many thanks, best regards.
Recently I’m thinking about tri-amp the 3 way loudspeakers that I’m planning to build, I know that the optimum way is with separated amps for each driver, but due the high costs of acquire 3 amps, I’m thinking about of an multi channel amp.
Appreciate very much the thoughts from more experienced people about this subject, do you think that with a multi channel amp, and a very nice crossover, the system still will provide the great advantages of an active multi-amplified system?
Will put here the equipments that I have in mind, in order to provide some context.
This are the speakers that I’m planning to build, in fact, already purchased the first drivers 🙂,
3 way: 12" woofer + radial horn + super tweeter
https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/recom_enclose/w400aII_encl.pdf
(the exact drivers are the showed on the third option plan)
Active Crossover:
http://www.accuphase.com/cat/f-15len.pdf or http://www.accuphase.com/cat/f-25en.pdf
F15-L appears for reasonable prices from time to time...
Now, the amp it’s the big question?
I noticed that if choose the multichannel amp, mostly of then are designed for home theaters or pro audio... what about HiFi Stereo?
Appreciate very much suggestions, vintage or actual in production...
This Accuphase from 2001: http://www.accuphase.com/cat/px-600e.pdf
Appears to be the logical option, when considering the crossover, but this don’t appear very often, but according to my researches, they appear from time to time in Japan, found some on online auctions that was sold for prices not so extravagant... still costly, but, considering the price of acquire separated amps for the same performance level, still worth it..
Anyway, that’s it, appreciate very much all the thoughts about the subject, advices, amps suggestions...
Many thanks, best regards.
You could go half way:
- Use active cross over for Woofer / Mid+Tweeter separation + equalization and bass linearization.
- Use passive cross over for Mid-Tweeter (smaller component values means you can go high quality with less cost)
This would allow you to have a great amp for mid-tweeter, and a less sophisticated one for bass (class D do well here).
From there, either you use 2 HiFi stereo amps, or you use 1 HiFi stereo amp, and install a plate amplifier (Hypex FA252 for example) on the back of your speaker for the woofer, as done here:
FUSION-BI-AMP/DSP
- Use active cross over for Woofer / Mid+Tweeter separation + equalization and bass linearization.
- Use passive cross over for Mid-Tweeter (smaller component values means you can go high quality with less cost)
This would allow you to have a great amp for mid-tweeter, and a less sophisticated one for bass (class D do well here).
From there, either you use 2 HiFi stereo amps, or you use 1 HiFi stereo amp, and install a plate amplifier (Hypex FA252 for example) on the back of your speaker for the woofer, as done here:
FUSION-BI-AMP/DSP
If you are looking at multichannel power amps then I would be looking at second hand power amps like the following -
Rotel RMB1066 (I have two of these, these can be bridged to give either 6x60W or 3x150w or any combination in between so if you have 8ohm woofer you can use 4 channels bridged for the woofers and then the remaining 2 for mid/tweeters) - £200-250 in UK
Audiolab 8000x7 - £500 in UK
and if I had the funds Arcam P7 or P777 - £750-1000 in UK
You may also be able to find Emotiva kit from US as well.
But as @Martigane says may be better using a passive for the Mid/Tweeter and active for the woofer. You can then use a Behringer A500 (older model class AB), Behringer A800 (newer class D) or Crown XLS1002/XLS1502 for the woofer and something "a little more Hifi" for the mid/tweeters.
Rotel RMB1066 (I have two of these, these can be bridged to give either 6x60W or 3x150w or any combination in between so if you have 8ohm woofer you can use 4 channels bridged for the woofers and then the remaining 2 for mid/tweeters) - £200-250 in UK
Audiolab 8000x7 - £500 in UK
and if I had the funds Arcam P7 or P777 - £750-1000 in UK
You may also be able to find Emotiva kit from US as well.
But as @Martigane says may be better using a passive for the Mid/Tweeter and active for the woofer. You can then use a Behringer A500 (older model class AB), Behringer A800 (newer class D) or Crown XLS1002/XLS1502 for the woofer and something "a little more Hifi" for the mid/tweeters.
+1 - makes sense. Might as well just go DSP today since the advantages are quite appealing.
I buy amps at the thrift store. Amps made since 1985 are as perfect as needed (I would have said 1970 but that's too provocative).
B.
People are always upgrading their Home Theatre amps is seems. Small to medium power multi channel HT amps are actually pretty cheap on a per-watt basis. I decided to keep mine for playing with DSP because the selling price was too low to entice me to move it on. Any of the Rotel RMB series should work, also most smaller Pro amps are cheap enough and many come with inbuilt DSP. Some on local eBay now at $95- each 200w a channel in stereo but no DSP You don't have to spend a fortune on amplifiers, especially not collectors items the Accuphase are very very nice but not a hundred times nicer than my $200- Behringer XO
off course there is a myriad possibilies of combining different amplifiers, crossovers and so on. But as the thread starter asked about multichannel amplifiers, I will reply to that.
I use a 3 way active crossover (MiniDSP) whose line level outputs go to the multichannel (6 channels) inputs of an Arcam AVR250 (bought for USD 250,00). This is a a 7x75W HT receiver, whose 7th channel is not used.
I like the HT receiver because:
- single enclosure, space saving;
- use master volume to control all channels at the same time;
- possibility to control the level of each channel individually (to adjust for the different speaker sensitivity).
More subjectively, I think that it is nice to have the same amplifiers for all channels, at least during the speaker development and adjustments (later on one can use power for bass, and some nice class A for mid and highs...). I got the Arcam because it is said to have very good sound, better than HT receivers as Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha (but I did not actually compare).
My long term goal is to replace the crossovers and amplifiers with some DIY stuff, but due to 3 little kids this is going to take a while 🙂
I use a 3 way active crossover (MiniDSP) whose line level outputs go to the multichannel (6 channels) inputs of an Arcam AVR250 (bought for USD 250,00). This is a a 7x75W HT receiver, whose 7th channel is not used.
I like the HT receiver because:
- single enclosure, space saving;
- use master volume to control all channels at the same time;
- possibility to control the level of each channel individually (to adjust for the different speaker sensitivity).
More subjectively, I think that it is nice to have the same amplifiers for all channels, at least during the speaker development and adjustments (later on one can use power for bass, and some nice class A for mid and highs...). I got the Arcam because it is said to have very good sound, better than HT receivers as Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha (but I did not actually compare).
My long term goal is to replace the crossovers and amplifiers with some DIY stuff, but due to 3 little kids this is going to take a while 🙂
Analog active crossover for me, don't want my phono signal be converted to digital along the signal path
Anyway... Interesting, what I wondering is how this multi channel specific designed for HT are voiced you know? if there's something on their design that is more suitable for movies sounds, effects, and etc.. and not so refined for music playback only, from vinyl CDs, and etc...
Maybe this happens with some models, but is not a common thing in all?
Thanks!
Anyway... Interesting, what I wondering is how this multi channel specific designed for HT are voiced you know? if there's something on their design that is more suitable for movies sounds, effects, and etc.. and not so refined for music playback only, from vinyl CDs, and etc...
Maybe this happens with some models, but is not a common thing in all?
Thanks!
I have found that typically power amps have only a small effect on subjective sound quality (if you believe some of the information out there, a power amp has no effect on sound quality it is "a straight wire with gain") so long as it has a large enough power supply (transformer (VA) and capacitor capacity (uf)) to cope with the dynamic swings in the input signal. Whereas, I have found that the preamp circuits (either stand alone or in integrated or AVR amps/receivers) do make a difference to the "tonal quality" of the sound emitting form the speakers.
Therefore the multichannel power amps from Rotel and Arcam usually come recommended as they have good power supplies whereas some other makes do not. As an example, the Arcam P777 has two 1.5kVa transformer and 20kuF capacitance per channel (140kuF total) and pushed out 7x150 into 8 ohms and 7x230 into 4 ohms. The use of an Arcam AVR is a good shout but I would try and disable any preamp circuits that I can (run in direct mode) if you can.
Therefore the multichannel power amps from Rotel and Arcam usually come recommended as they have good power supplies whereas some other makes do not. As an example, the Arcam P777 has two 1.5kVa transformer and 20kuF capacitance per channel (140kuF total) and pushed out 7x150 into 8 ohms and 7x230 into 4 ohms. The use of an Arcam AVR is a good shout but I would try and disable any preamp circuits that I can (run in direct mode) if you can.
Amplifiers are amplifiers. A good amplifier adds nothing, subtracts nothing from the signal Behringer XOs are analogue not digital and I think you are mistaken in your belief about ADC but it is your project. I am new to DAC but find it a viable alternative, especially when funds are limited and amplifiers are so cheap
BTW my midrange amps are TRIAC LM-007's Very old school but still sweet
BTW my midrange amps are TRIAC LM-007's Very old school but still sweet
I also wanted to replace the MiniDSP with analog crossovers, but after finetuning the speakers I realized that it would be a major job, as, besides the LP and HP filters, I also need delays, notch filters... I put that on hold.
Arcam is recognized to make nice sounding amplifiers, so that is the reason I went for it. Also 250USD was not expensive. Still, I did not compare it to anything else, so can't say about sonic characteristics.
If your sources are all digital then you could look at the Minidsp Nanodigi which accepts stereo digital inputs (coax and toslink), carried out all of the usual DSP functions (crossovers, notch, gain, delay etc.) and outputs 8 channels of SPDIF (4 stereo rca outputs), this can then be put through as many DACs as channels you are using and then into poweramps. This keeps the signal digital up until the last minute.
So -
Digital source (CD/streamer) > Nanodigi > 1-4 x stereo DAC > 2-8 channels of poweramp > 2-8 speaker drivers in speaker cabinets.
The only choice then is where to put the volume control - on the software app if you are using a PC/tablet based system, in the windows main volume settings, in the Nanodigi (easiest, built in with IR remote), possibly in the DACS (if you use some of the ES9038Q2M boards available) or add passive stepped attenuators or 2-8 channel potentiometer between the DACs and the Power amps.
Possible DACs could include the Khadas Tone Board, Topping D10/D30/D50, second hand Dacmagics/IRDAC/V90 or for all 8 channel in one box a second hand Lucid 88192. The options here are pretty much endless.
Just an alternative thought and likely to be the way I would go.
So -
Digital source (CD/streamer) > Nanodigi > 1-4 x stereo DAC > 2-8 channels of poweramp > 2-8 speaker drivers in speaker cabinets.
The only choice then is where to put the volume control - on the software app if you are using a PC/tablet based system, in the windows main volume settings, in the Nanodigi (easiest, built in with IR remote), possibly in the DACS (if you use some of the ES9038Q2M boards available) or add passive stepped attenuators or 2-8 channel potentiometer between the DACs and the Power amps.
Possible DACs could include the Khadas Tone Board, Topping D10/D30/D50, second hand Dacmagics/IRDAC/V90 or for all 8 channel in one box a second hand Lucid 88192. The options here are pretty much endless.
Just an alternative thought and likely to be the way I would go.
hi Ugg10
The thread starter already wrote he is using phono and does not want ADCs and DACs.
In my case I am indeed using digital sources only, so thinking about nanodigi and some of the Soekris R2R dacs (I have 2 already)
The possibilities are indeed endless and after dealing with this for a couple of years now I sort of stick my comments/recomendations to what the author asks, to hopefully keep focus 🙂
Best,
Erik
The thread starter already wrote he is using phono and does not want ADCs and DACs.
In my case I am indeed using digital sources only, so thinking about nanodigi and some of the Soekris R2R dacs (I have 2 already)
The possibilities are indeed endless and after dealing with this for a couple of years now I sort of stick my comments/recomendations to what the author asks, to hopefully keep focus 🙂
Best,
Erik
This is a religious rather than solid engineering perspective.
My ADC has a DNR at least 50dB higher than any LP/TT and about twice the bandwidth, so how is it going to be detectable if you integrate it properly? Be interested in your arguments as I've actually done the testing.
Lastly, I've found Accuphase stuff to be overpriced, unless your intention is to merely impress your audiophile friends with the name.
Well, how can be a benefit of the phono signal be converted to digital via de digital crossover, and after that converted to analog again to output the sound?
Any benefit? I'm think the main focus of digital active crossovers is to be used with digital sources.....
But I'm open mind.. would like to heard the contradictory about my statement...
Thanks!
Any benefit? I'm think the main focus of digital active crossovers is to be used with digital sources.....
But I'm open mind.. would like to heard the contradictory about my statement...
Thanks!
Look for an analog crossover which is flexible enough to include analog delay circuits. You want to build crossovers with the best SPL + time + phase
Our main Apogee speakers have an all analog signal path with Krell crossover and amps. We play our records and tapes only on this system.
Our main Apogee speakers have an all analog signal path with Krell crossover and amps. We play our records and tapes only on this system.
Because the xover is so much more capable than that vintage Accuphase rubbish. Multiple different filter types, slopes, EQ and delay. You can even go with FIR filters which allow you to do so much more than you can in IIR.
If you need to ask these questions, I question your skillset and the ability to actually integrate any 3 way design well. It's not as simple as just plugging in a generic x dB slope xover and adjusting levels.
PS: No matter what xover you use, you'll need a good calibrated measurement system.
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Hey guys, please, appreciate if someone can solve a doubt of mine, when considering this amp: Pioneer M-73 Class A Power Amplifier for sale. in a multi amplification situation.
Here's the situation:
Considering a pair of 3 way loudspeakers, 12" woofer + radial horn + super horn tweeter, it's possible to amplify the 2 radial horns + 2 super horn tweeters, with just one Pioneer M-73?
I'm asking because I see 4 A + B speakers terminals on the back, and on the front, I see that is possible to select the A + B speakers at the same time...
It's possible? or I'm interpreting this wrongly?
Many thanks! Best regards.
Here's the situation:
Considering a pair of 3 way loudspeakers, 12" woofer + radial horn + super horn tweeter, it's possible to amplify the 2 radial horns + 2 super horn tweeters, with just one Pioneer M-73?
I'm asking because I see 4 A + B speakers terminals on the back, and on the front, I see that is possible to select the A + B speakers at the same time...
It's possible? or I'm interpreting this wrongly?
Many thanks! Best regards.
Sure you can, you just need an analog (speaker level) crossover between them. However it will still be only two amps, not four. Effectively you would only be bi-wiring.
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