That is pretty steep statement picowallspeaker, could you write some more to back it up? I'm sure a better scientific approach would interest many, if there is one? Personal opinions are just personal opinions, but these could be interesting as well.
There is no better trade-off set than following what the personal preference is, for the personal projects, so I appreciate your point of view in that sense.
There is no better trade-off set than following what the personal preference is, for the personal projects, so I appreciate your point of view in that sense.
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all advances in waveguide design are very much welcomed
OTOH:
- reducing the first reflections ratio to the direct sound doesn't change the delays,
- moreover this reduction is frequency dependent, low passed, therefore reflections will be not only as early as before but also coloured, the sound will be changed,
- and last but not least such system needs higher order crossover so time response will be compromised too, another trade-off
That's why also omni doesn't work ( sorry graaf)
no need to be sorry I don't sell anything
OTOH what do You mean by "omni" that "doesn't work"?
Because some designs tagged as "omni" seem to work somewhat, at least in the sense of being sold and praised, from pioneering Stewart Hegeman designs to MBL and German Physiks, some sold for much dinero
I am grateful that I don't find it so difficult to be satisfied by a sound system and enjoy the music, as compared to some people in this thread. This is an odd feeling, because compared to my family and most of my friends I am quite particular about sound quality. Most of them are perfectly happy listening to a crappy bluetooth speaker, factory car audio system or whatever, with extremely limited frequency response and gobs of distortion.
I suppose this "idea of perfect sound" can be added to the list of trade-off factors. What will you be satisfied with? It doesn't get any more subjective than that - however it is probably the biggest limiting factor of all. Some will simply never be satisfied. Many of these same people have significant hearing issues. It all walks the edge of absurdity.
I suppose this "idea of perfect sound" can be added to the list of trade-off factors. What will you be satisfied with? It doesn't get any more subjective than that - however it is probably the biggest limiting factor of all. Some will simply never be satisfied. Many of these same people have significant hearing issues. It all walks the edge of absurdity.
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^Totally, but it is so much fun trying to reach something "better", solving problems, finding things out, exploring! I love music, listening all the time, recording mixing and performing and enjoying a lot, this is just another layer at least for me and my engineer part of brain
graaf, what is that higher order crossover thing? FIR filters would take care of that. I'm using first order electrical filter with CD + some Peak filters with DSP. Harsh xo simulation with real measurements show phase rotation of around 40 degrees between 400-3khz or so if I remember. I haven't spotted anything special with the crossovers if using waveguide comparing to directradiating speakers. At least with DSP (IIR). ps. my measurements might be wrong, but it sounds good so kind of trusting they are oke.
graaf, what is that higher order crossover thing? FIR filters would take care of that. I'm using first order electrical filter with CD + some Peak filters with DSP. Harsh xo simulation with real measurements show phase rotation of around 40 degrees between 400-3khz or so if I remember. I haven't spotted anything special with the crossovers if using waveguide comparing to directradiating speakers. At least with DSP (IIR). ps. my measurements might be wrong, but it sounds good so kind of trusting they are oke.
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Keep in mind that the shape of th econe from the back is also inverted and will have a dramatically different higher frequency radistion pattern.
dave
Yes, I agree that there are no special problems in comparison to direct radiators.
My point is that waveguided drivers usually need higher order crossovers for protection at required crossover points.
Anyway, in Your case does it work without DSP?
I suppose yes, there is some FR anomalies near the crossover point so the knee is equalized a bit and then some flattening higher up. It is passive highpass with capacitor and L-pad because my chinese tpa3116 amplifier is so noisy I didn't have to shape the slope other than the very knee. Crossover point is somewhere around 1500-1800Hz if I remember and there is little notch at 1.2kHz or so and the rest is higher up. Tried many settings, steeper slopes, the current setup is now sounding the best, but I have to measure it someday and try to match the second best option somehow which has steeper slope on the CD as well as many other differences. The other looks a lot nicer on a simulator, but this one sounds more lively, the otherone is kind of constrained sound.
I didn't have to shape the slope other than the very knee. Crossover point is somewhere around 1500-1800Hz if I remember and there is little notch at 1.2kHz or so and the rest is higher up. Tried many settings, steeper slopes, the current setup is now sounding the best, but I have to measure it someday and try to match the second best option somehow which has steeper slope on the CD as well as many other differences. The other looks a lot nicer on a simulator, but this one sounds more lively, the otherone is kind of constrained sound.
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Funnily enough, Sean Olive is talking about this exact subject on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/seanolive/status/1354685110092615680?s=20
The experts in this subject say multi-channel and biologically sympathetic recording methods lead to more accurate representations of live performance.
I find it really strange that someone would deny the fact live performance is superior to two channel stereo. If we place a live trumpet behind a curtain vs a two channel stereo system every single person on Earth who has ears to hear will be able to immediately distinguish the difference and identify which source is live and which is reproduced. I'm certain the preference ratings would overwhelmingly favor the live trumpet as well. I mean, imagine a speaker company like Harman trying to claim their speakers sounded better than the real thing. We'd all laugh them out of the room.
I also find it strange that someone would create a strict dichotomy between live performance and two channel stereo reproduction as though there's not a spectrum in the middle. Multi-channel is superior to two channel stereo because it more closely approximates live performance. It's so weird to think anyone would decide multi-channel doesn't exactly match live performance and therefore revert to a two channel stereo system that does an even worse job of approximating live performance.
As technology changes compromises change. The biggest technology change I see at the moment that will have immediate impact on DIY speaker design is streaming audio services adopting three dimensional audio. I suppose the turntable and reel-to-reel guys are going to be really upset about that.
Some speaker designers did exactly that (comparing live to recorded music):
Source: Dunlavy Audio Labs Signature SC-VI loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com
Dunlavy said:
Source: Dunlavy Audio Labs Signature SC-VI loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com
That's one way to look at it. However generalizations create some confusion here.
A different example: At one time I was a very big fan of one particular band. So much so that I saw them live over a dozen times over the years, all over Canada and even in the USA once. As much as I loved the experience of being at those concerts, the sound quality absolutely sucked compared to the CDs played through my stereo system. Regarding sound quality, the stereo system's performance was (subjectively) far superior. This was a huge band, with unlimited money to spend. They made it sound as good as they could. I am truly glad that my 2-channel stereo experience did not perfectly reproduce the "live" experience.
I'm not saying your example is wrong - just that there are many ways you can come at this issue.
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