Good point, Dave. I’m sure it affects the sound, but to what extent I don’t know. And really won’t know until I try it.
I’m not expecting perfection, but am looking for what I expect an OB to sound like. Large and deep sound stage, clean bass, and a scale that more suits listening to a symphony orchestra than to a jazz singer in a night club.
I might be disappointed, but the initial investment is very cheap and easy to try. Can be as little as $110 for a pair of Wild Burro Betsy's. Why not go for it and find out if OB is right for you?
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There is no denying that recording a trumpet behind a curtain, and then playing it back from a pair of speakers behind the curtain is going to be a real test for the playback system... Its not just the speakers, but the whole playback chain. A trumpet at close range would be a challenge... so would a drum kit. It is not the lack of channels that is the limitation, it is very high dynamic range and SPL that a trumpet brings to the table.
However, a really good pair of studio or mastering monitors in a well designed studio can come remarkably close. Some instruments, such as acoustic guitar, human voice, flute... these can be reproduced quite realistically. Harbeth is known to use this exact method to voice their speakers.
But a trumpet playing behind a curtain is not a performance. A performance takes place at a venue: a concert hall, a tavern, a stadium, an opera house. Every seat has a different acoustic environment, every person there hears a slightly different performance. Just as the microphone placement captures just one perspective, each member of the audience hears just one perspective.
With well recorded high resolution digital files, I can close my eyes and my two channel system can create a convincing illusion of space and depth. I can achieve a "suspension of disbelief" and become lost in the music.
If there were vast catalogs of multi-channel music available, I might be interested... but there is not.
Good point: the 'trade off' of listening to rock recordings is that they can sound good. Of course, there are limitations such as neighbours which limit the volume at which you can listen: a good thing for your ears' health.
Going to a rock concert is in some ways more of a social than musical event; I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of shows which had good sound.
I saw Queen in 1975, about the time of 'Bohemian Rhapsody': great show, awesome musicianship but the sound was so loud and harsh that it was hard to enjoy the concert. My hearing was fuzzy for hours afterwards.
If you're a music lover of any genre, it's almost essential to go to some live shows so you can hear how instruments actually sound. And perhaps, how they shouldn't.
Geoff
What I find strange is that you don't seem to able to comprehend that a live performance versus listening to a recording in your home are two entirely different experiences and therefore cannot be compared to each other.
It is impossible in any logical system to declare one superior to the other. Yet you continue to do so and claim your conclusion to be a fact when it isn't.
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Scott,
I achieve the experience that Jim describes (or at least my subjective version of it), however I bet our systems are very different. My point here is simply that it really isn't all that difficult to do this well, but to do it perfectly is infinitely difficult.
My system: FLAC files --> laptop running Volumio (bit-perfect) --> Khadas Tone Board --> modified HLLY AMK-II pre-amp, Tubelab SSE, Planet-10 microTowers with dual MarkAudio Pluvia 7.2HD
(Technics SL-10 is an alternative source that gets its share of play time as well)
My room: Average living room with average furniture, zero treatments.
Sit anywhere in the generous sweet spot and close your eyes. All the voices and instruments take their places. The source material itself matters a lot, in my case. Something like Chris Jones' "Roadhouses & Automobiles" or Cooder & Bhatt's "A Meeting by the River" are simply stunning on my system, compared to run-of-the-mill highly compressed rock recordings or whatever. But to each their own, once again.
I achieve the experience that Jim describes (or at least my subjective version of it), however I bet our systems are very different. My point here is simply that it really isn't all that difficult to do this well, but to do it perfectly is infinitely difficult.
My system: FLAC files --> laptop running Volumio (bit-perfect) --> Khadas Tone Board --> modified HLLY AMK-II pre-amp, Tubelab SSE, Planet-10 microTowers with dual MarkAudio Pluvia 7.2HD
(Technics SL-10 is an alternative source that gets its share of play time as well)
My room: Average living room with average furniture, zero treatments.
Sit anywhere in the generous sweet spot and close your eyes. All the voices and instruments take their places. The source material itself matters a lot, in my case. Something like Chris Jones' "Roadhouses & Automobiles" or Cooder & Bhatt's "A Meeting by the River" are simply stunning on my system, compared to run-of-the-mill highly compressed rock recordings or whatever. But to each their own, once again.
These Watson observations are very interesting.
Actually Watson closely resembles Time Domain Yoshii9 loudspeakers, on the market for quite some time.
Well, i was waiting for it that it came to the table. The real reproduction of a concert is never real. It's always edited and processed in a studio after the show (even with classical music). I worked as sound engineer before my back killed that carreer and i've been there. And like said, a concert never sounds the same in different spots in the venue, so the illusion of a real sounding in your room reproduction is an illusion and will always be an illusion.
I listen to a broad range of music and visit concerts in all kind of styles, from classic opera to experimental electronic music like breakcore and from metal to smooth jazz, and think that you should build a speaker that 1st, fits your room and listening habbits and 2nd, give a good illusion of the recording played live in your room, but it will be an illusion. What that is i noticed in my 25 years in audio is very subjective, and changes over time for each person as our hearing also is subjective and changes when aging.
That is why i always object when people state this is the only right way to do it. There are many ways. And the science behind it helps to get where you want. But what you want may not be what someone else wants so keep that in mind.
That does not mean this tread is not interesting (even the strong stated points that i don't agree on). It's good that this kind of discussion is going on, and it has to be said, for once in a very polite constructive way. So keep going...
I listen to a broad range of music and visit concerts in all kind of styles, from classic opera to experimental electronic music like breakcore and from metal to smooth jazz, and think that you should build a speaker that 1st, fits your room and listening habbits and 2nd, give a good illusion of the recording played live in your room, but it will be an illusion. What that is i noticed in my 25 years in audio is very subjective, and changes over time for each person as our hearing also is subjective and changes when aging.
That is why i always object when people state this is the only right way to do it. There are many ways. And the science behind it helps to get where you want. But what you want may not be what someone else wants so keep that in mind.
That does not mean this tread is not interesting (even the strong stated points that i don't agree on). It's good that this kind of discussion is going on, and it has to be said, for once in a very polite constructive way. So keep going...
I was at the live recording of the this cd, The Carmina Burana of Carl Orff with Thomas E. Bauer, Yves Saelens, Yeree Suh, Anima Eterna Brugge, Collegium Vocale Gent and Cantate Domino directed by Jos van Immerseel in the Concertgebouw Brugge (Concert Hall Bruges) in 2014.
I also have the 24bit 96kHz masters (can be bought) and it's not the same. It was recorded by specialists in one of the better concert halls (the one in Bruges) of Europe, by top musicians in this kind of classical music and is known as probally the best recording of this piece ever. I heared it on several systems already. My own, but also on Tannoy Westminster speakers amped with Pass Labs amps and on B&W 800D's with Bryston amps in a mastering studio space (acousticly treaded like it should). But live is a total different experience.
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My room is 23' x 32' with a ceiling that ranges from 8' to 20' high. The ceiling is not parallel to the floor.
My speakers are a 3-way active system with Hypex amplification. The woofers are 12” SB drivers in a sealed box. The mid/tweeters are in their own stand-mounted cabinet located in front of the bass boxes. The mid is an SB17CAC-35 ceramic/aluminum cone driver, the tweeter is an SB26CDC ceramic/aluminum dome tweeter. Crossovers are at 200 Hz and 2 kHz, LR4. The crossovers, driver EQ, and delay are managed by DSP. I have a thread with all the details:
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
Despite my large collection of CDs and vinyl, I find the best sound on my system comes from high resolution digital files. 24 bit / 96k FLAC files can be deeply satisfying. I play them from my laptop with either Foobar or Audirvana for bit-perfect transfer to my DAC through a USB cable. I have a "Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital" as my DAC . From there the analog signal goes to my preamp, a 1992 B&K… At this point, unless I am listening to vinyl, the preamp is simply a volume control… all my switching between digital sources is through the Pro-Ject box. The analog signal then goes to the two Hypex amps located in the speaker stands.
j.
When I get some time I'll to go through my CD collection and see how many are 'live' recordings. But the term 'live' here may be very misleading.
There really are three possibilities, not just two:
A concert hall with an audience, which would be consider a live performance.
A concert hall without an audience, which would not be considered a live performance.
A large studio, obviously without an audience
It's my impression that most classical recordings are the second type - a concert hall without an audience.
And then the question becomes does it make any difference in the recording. My guess is that is doesn't, but it will be interesting to find out.
The question is can you transport yourself into the 10th row in the center of the orchestra section in a symphony hall. And the answer is emphatically no.
I don't care how many speakers you surround yourself with. It's not going to happen.
So you think an apple is a poor version of an orange (or vice-versa)?
How about a Ferrari is a poor version of a Toyota (or vice-versa)?
Hockey is a poor version of football (or vice-versa)?
You are trying to say one thing is better than another when they are not directly comparable.
That is illogical. That is why no one is argeeing with you.
dave
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