Yves Smolders said:Jan-Peter,
Does this mean that, in case of DC at output in a UCD400/Hypex PS situation:
A) The transformer is decoupled, and the caps still are connected to the amps?
or
B) Caps+Tranformer are disconnected from the amps?
Thanks. Case A could still kill a speaker!
It means that the caps of the power supply 2x10.000uF ST supply or 4x10.000uF HG supply is switched off. The smaller caps on board of the UcD180/400 is still present. However these don't have so much charge that this will kill your speakers.
But....the UcD700 has much more capacitors on the PCB and the voltage is much higher, we have put in the UcD700 PS an extra feature to short circuit the charge what is on board of the UcD700 amplifier. This is automatically done when there is a DC fault and when the relay switch it will remove the High Rail voltage AND connect a 5W resistor to the capacitors to remove the charge.
It's 20A piek --> 14Arms --> 400W @ 2 ohm
classd4sure said:
We use a RCRC decoupling, a good brand 7812/7912. There is an huge difference in specs between several brands of 7812/7912! And very good layouting of the tracks to get the lowest hum/noise/EMI....... 😉
Jan-Peter
Jan-Peter said:
Fair enough. That's a level of honesty I wasn't prepared for, and it opens up a few options for the tweakers. Back to my soldering iron, the Jensens are going in tonight.
Thanks,
Chris
OK, thanks for the answer. The smaller caps on board won't be a problem, got that.
[/QUOTE]
It's 20A piek --> 14Arms --> 400W @ 2 ohm[/QUOTE]
OK that's about what I calculated, thanks again
Yves
Re: Re: Re: DC output protection
here's what I found in the UCD400 thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=738364#post738364
and to explain some of the connections, look here:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/HG_mechanical.pdf
that help?
GregD said:
here's what I found in the UCD400 thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=738364#post738364
and to explain some of the connections, look here:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/HG_mechanical.pdf
that help?
Hmm, so it just might be possible to add a 3rd input to that circuit.
I really should start to look in electronics again... Haven't done so since I was 13 years old...
3 inputs would be nice for 5 channel amps (2+3)
If anyone is willing to share how, I'd give it a go.
Y
I really should start to look in electronics again... Haven't done so since I was 13 years old...
3 inputs would be nice for 5 channel amps (2+3)
If anyone is willing to share how, I'd give it a go.
Y
hey everyone!
so, i got a quote back from my machinist. it looks like my cases will be pretty pricey to get them done right. i mean, they will look awesome, possibly better than the originals, but still.
so i might stick with just two monos for the time-being and just give myself an upgrade path for making them into stereos. but he said he can get the machining done in a couple of weeks. woohoo.
so, i got a quote back from my machinist. it looks like my cases will be pretty pricey to get them done right. i mean, they will look awesome, possibly better than the originals, but still.
so i might stick with just two monos for the time-being and just give myself an upgrade path for making them into stereos. but he said he can get the machining done in a couple of weeks. woohoo.
Hi,
I've been listening to my new supply with 15 000uF Jensen 4 pole per rail per channel.
It's a new amp entirely, the level of raw power attainable is unbelievable and it has a deep black noise floor that pulls you in.
I can put a test tone signal gen into my mixing strip and clearly hear it throughout its range of 20-20 000hz, with crystal detail on the highs, it used to become inaudible at around 15khz~, smeared out of time.
This thing is so revealing half of what I used to listen to is unbearable to hear the poor quality of but the odd recording is almost too intense, also having become completly holographic, and highly dynamic.
The soundstage is seriously a new dimension hearing the finest detail up to the highest of notes like never before, the more I crank it up the bigger the soundstage gets.
Funny though it sounds like there's a phase reversal at HF around 18khz. Probably some snubbing and a cap across the secondaries for HF decoupling would make a big difference again.
Still, parallel jensens just unfolded the sound to a whole new level I never imagined hearing. Even while too revealing for most recordings, where I usually found bass lacking in songs has deep black gripping base that I can really feel even at the lowest volumes. Possibly explains why the rail wires stay a little warm.
Still think it can improve based on how it is and how it ought it to be but this is already something incredible. Almost time to start worrying about a case.
Regards,
Chris
I've been listening to my new supply with 15 000uF Jensen 4 pole per rail per channel.
It's a new amp entirely, the level of raw power attainable is unbelievable and it has a deep black noise floor that pulls you in.
I can put a test tone signal gen into my mixing strip and clearly hear it throughout its range of 20-20 000hz, with crystal detail on the highs, it used to become inaudible at around 15khz~, smeared out of time.
This thing is so revealing half of what I used to listen to is unbearable to hear the poor quality of but the odd recording is almost too intense, also having become completly holographic, and highly dynamic.
The soundstage is seriously a new dimension hearing the finest detail up to the highest of notes like never before, the more I crank it up the bigger the soundstage gets.
Funny though it sounds like there's a phase reversal at HF around 18khz. Probably some snubbing and a cap across the secondaries for HF decoupling would make a big difference again.
Still, parallel jensens just unfolded the sound to a whole new level I never imagined hearing. Even while too revealing for most recordings, where I usually found bass lacking in songs has deep black gripping base that I can really feel even at the lowest volumes. Possibly explains why the rail wires stay a little warm.
Still think it can improve based on how it is and how it ought it to be but this is already something incredible. Almost time to start worrying about a case.
Regards,
Chris
classd4sure
Thanks for the report on the Jensen 4 pole caps.
May I ask where you bought them from?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for the report on the Jensen 4 pole caps.
May I ask where you bought them from?
Thanks in advance.
classd4sure said:
what caps were you using before? it's always pretty hard to categorize such posts unless you know what we are comparing.
and you are using 2x15,000 for a 2 channel UCD400?
Peter
Stevenacnj said:
Partsconnexion.com /welcome.
pburke said:
First ELNA Cerafines which were far outdone by BHC T-networks but only 10 000uF a rail for two channels on both of those setups. Now it's 30 000uF /rail on a stereo pair of ucd180s with 500VA, with dual 68 amp 600PIV FRED bridge rectifiers and nothing else.
These caps in // are like bandwidth in a can.
ok, so im still deciding which caps to get. since the machining and finishing work on my cases will be so costly, im trying to get best bang for my buck right now. i dont want to do anything crazy, just get a good sounding amp.
since im using a single xformer for a stereo amp, i figured i might as well just do a single shared power supply. the stereo amp will be driving a single speaker (passively bi-amped), so sharing a power supply isnt as big of a deal...
so, im thinking use a single 1.7kva transformer (the ones im using now), standard dual bridge rectifiers (i can easily upgrade this part later to IXYS bridges or something), and then a bank of caps.
im probably going to go with nichicons from percy audio. since ~6250uf or so per channel for 4ohm is recommended, i want to stick around 20,000uf - 25,000uf per channel, so a total cap bank of 40,000uf - 50,000uf. that would be either 4x 10,000uf caps, OR, 2x 22,000uf caps. it would actually be cheaper to just do 2x 22,000uf KG golds per power supply. the 4x 10,000uf option would be more money.
does anything think im really screwing myself if i go this route? its certainly better than just generic caps... i can work wtih bypass caps, snubbers on the rectifiers, etc.... thats all cheap stuff to use. the main cost here will be the caps, since i already have bridge rectifiers, the transformers, etc.
since im using a single xformer for a stereo amp, i figured i might as well just do a single shared power supply. the stereo amp will be driving a single speaker (passively bi-amped), so sharing a power supply isnt as big of a deal...
so, im thinking use a single 1.7kva transformer (the ones im using now), standard dual bridge rectifiers (i can easily upgrade this part later to IXYS bridges or something), and then a bank of caps.
im probably going to go with nichicons from percy audio. since ~6250uf or so per channel for 4ohm is recommended, i want to stick around 20,000uf - 25,000uf per channel, so a total cap bank of 40,000uf - 50,000uf. that would be either 4x 10,000uf caps, OR, 2x 22,000uf caps. it would actually be cheaper to just do 2x 22,000uf KG golds per power supply. the 4x 10,000uf option would be more money.
does anything think im really screwing myself if i go this route? its certainly better than just generic caps... i can work wtih bypass caps, snubbers on the rectifiers, etc.... thats all cheap stuff to use. the main cost here will be the caps, since i already have bridge rectifiers, the transformers, etc.
ok, ive looked at it a bit more, and here is what i came up with:
here are my 5 options im looking at:
Option 1, single PSU, 4x 10,000uf caps
20,000uf per channel, $159.60
Option 2, single PSU, 2x 22,000uf caps
22,000uf per channel, $123.80
Option 3, dual PSU, 4x 4,700uf caps
18,800uf per channel, $127.20
Option 4, dual PSU, 6x 4,700uf caps
28,200uf per channel, $168.94
Option 5, dual PSU, 2x 10,000uf caps
$159.60, 20,000uf per channel
so after looking at it like this, it looks like going with a single cap bank isnt the way to go. so, ive narrowed it down to option 3 or option 4. i like option 4 better because of the higher capacitance per channel. percy gives a 15% discount when you buy 25 or more of one value, so its not much more money to get 6 caps per channel, instead of 4. so, unless that is just too MUCH capacitance per channel, i think ill go ahead and order those.
i will just use standard 400v, 25A bridge rectifiers for now, and if i have money later, ill upgrade to something nicer. i build ALL my stuff modular, so any part can be removed and replaced with something better... i make it so you can upgrade really easy.
here are my 5 options im looking at:
Option 1, single PSU, 4x 10,000uf caps
20,000uf per channel, $159.60
Option 2, single PSU, 2x 22,000uf caps
22,000uf per channel, $123.80
Option 3, dual PSU, 4x 4,700uf caps
18,800uf per channel, $127.20
Option 4, dual PSU, 6x 4,700uf caps
28,200uf per channel, $168.94
Option 5, dual PSU, 2x 10,000uf caps
$159.60, 20,000uf per channel
so after looking at it like this, it looks like going with a single cap bank isnt the way to go. so, ive narrowed it down to option 3 or option 4. i like option 4 better because of the higher capacitance per channel. percy gives a 15% discount when you buy 25 or more of one value, so its not much more money to get 6 caps per channel, instead of 4. so, unless that is just too MUCH capacitance per channel, i think ill go ahead and order those.
i will just use standard 400v, 25A bridge rectifiers for now, and if i have money later, ill upgrade to something nicer. i build ALL my stuff modular, so any part can be removed and replaced with something better... i make it so you can upgrade really easy.
anybody have any opinions? i think this is finally what im going to get, i just dont want to buy it and then have somoene give me a better option...
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with the cap upgrade. It sounds like you're on a budget and plan to possibly do another upgrade later down the road.
I've looked at a long list of caps to possibly build a custom supply for my UCDs, but the Nichicons never really struck me as a grand choice. They are good, no question, but are they that much better than what you have now to justify the price? What about just adding some film bypass caps to your current caps?
I've used Nichicons in lower voltage projects and they never sounded that great to me. Panasonics sounded equally and are cheaper. Neither come anywhere close to Blackgates, but that's the catch - those will cost you $600 for 40,000uF in this application...
Anyone ever try these new Mundorf-MLytic HC caps?
http://www.mundorf.com/english/Capacitors_Amplifier.pdf
They seem to have great ratings, in spite of their size, and they cost about $60 for the 80V 22,000uF units which makes them very competitive with the Nichicons at least. I did some googling and found this post here on DIYaudio:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67533
pretty much the opposite of using many small Nichicons, but if the marketing PDF is not completely full of BS, these may be nice caps for amplifier usage. There's a better track record with the Nichicons, though.
Peter
Peter
I've looked at a long list of caps to possibly build a custom supply for my UCDs, but the Nichicons never really struck me as a grand choice. They are good, no question, but are they that much better than what you have now to justify the price? What about just adding some film bypass caps to your current caps?
I've used Nichicons in lower voltage projects and they never sounded that great to me. Panasonics sounded equally and are cheaper. Neither come anywhere close to Blackgates, but that's the catch - those will cost you $600 for 40,000uF in this application...
Anyone ever try these new Mundorf-MLytic HC caps?
http://www.mundorf.com/english/Capacitors_Amplifier.pdf
They seem to have great ratings, in spite of their size, and they cost about $60 for the 80V 22,000uF units which makes them very competitive with the Nichicons at least. I did some googling and found this post here on DIYaudio:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67533
pretty much the opposite of using many small Nichicons, but if the marketing PDF is not completely full of BS, these may be nice caps for amplifier usage. There's a better track record with the Nichicons, though.
Peter
Peter
Dear Cowanrg:
What is inside your Rotel? I've heard they have BHC ALS (or slitfoil?)
I use BHC ALS 40 big cans and I'm very happy with them. Appart the fact that they have M5 bolts , i.e. no soldering...
Yesterday I added the previously commented DC blocking circuit to my humble DIY AC filter:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...t=&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67413&highlight=
Music is purer and clearer with the filter. I still don't know if it blocks DC because my Plitron toroid doesn't humm 😀
What I mean is of course you need good quality PS caps to get the best of UCD's, BUT, AC is probably already too dirthy and we must face this issue (surtout for sources)
Best regards
Mauricio
What is inside your Rotel? I've heard they have BHC ALS (or slitfoil?)
I use BHC ALS 40 big cans and I'm very happy with them. Appart the fact that they have M5 bolts , i.e. no soldering...
Yesterday I added the previously commented DC blocking circuit to my humble DIY AC filter:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...t=&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67413&highlight=
Music is purer and clearer with the filter. I still don't know if it blocks DC because my Plitron toroid doesn't humm 😀
What I mean is of course you need good quality PS caps to get the best of UCD's, BUT, AC is probably already too dirthy and we must face this issue (surtout for sources)
Best regards
Mauricio
pburke,
thanks for the reply.
well, here is my problem... im doing 4 PSU's, so at $60 for a 22,000 uf cap, thats too much. even if i just did 2 PSU's, one for each pair of amps, that would still be $240 plus shipping. its just too much for me right now.
right now i have generic, surplus stock caps. and they are small too. im using 6x 2,200uf caps per channel. thats only 13,200uf, which is below the recommended capacitance for a 4ohm load (my speakers are 4ohm).
you are one of the first ive heard that didnt like the nichicons. most people around here really like them, and they have a pretty good reputation. black gates, jensens, etc are all NICE choices, but are very pricey.
ive looked at the panasonics, but have been unable to find them in the values i need. they seem to jump from 63v to 100v. and in the 100v rating, i cant find anything much higher than a 1,000uf. and they seem to be about the same price as the nichicons.
i do plan on doing upgrades down the road, but i want caps that i could keep for a long time. i would make upgrades in other places, but most likely keep the caps. i will probably NEVER buy black gates, or whatever for the PSU. i cant see a time in the future when i could justify spending more than $500 for caps. so, the ones i buy now will have to do for a LONG time. i just want the best i can get for my money and not be too sorry.
this project has been in the works for 3 years. i just want a working amp. if it doesnt turn out perfect, i can start saving up money and upgrade the parts later. right now, i can afford less than $200 for caps, so i might as well get something that can satisfy me for now...
thanks for the reply.
well, here is my problem... im doing 4 PSU's, so at $60 for a 22,000 uf cap, thats too much. even if i just did 2 PSU's, one for each pair of amps, that would still be $240 plus shipping. its just too much for me right now.
right now i have generic, surplus stock caps. and they are small too. im using 6x 2,200uf caps per channel. thats only 13,200uf, which is below the recommended capacitance for a 4ohm load (my speakers are 4ohm).
you are one of the first ive heard that didnt like the nichicons. most people around here really like them, and they have a pretty good reputation. black gates, jensens, etc are all NICE choices, but are very pricey.
ive looked at the panasonics, but have been unable to find them in the values i need. they seem to jump from 63v to 100v. and in the 100v rating, i cant find anything much higher than a 1,000uf. and they seem to be about the same price as the nichicons.
i do plan on doing upgrades down the road, but i want caps that i could keep for a long time. i would make upgrades in other places, but most likely keep the caps. i will probably NEVER buy black gates, or whatever for the PSU. i cant see a time in the future when i could justify spending more than $500 for caps. so, the ones i buy now will have to do for a LONG time. i just want the best i can get for my money and not be too sorry.
this project has been in the works for 3 years. i just want a working amp. if it doesnt turn out perfect, i can start saving up money and upgrade the parts later. right now, i can afford less than $200 for caps, so i might as well get something that can satisfy me for now...
maxlorenz said:
im pretty sure the rotels use BHC slitfoils. i checked on their site, yes they do.
i understand what you are saying about AC power. these amps are getting put into an already great sounding system that is pretty complete. i already use very nice power conditioning, specifically, i use dual Furman Elite 15-PF's. they are very nice. i havent looked at them through my scope yet (the scope is 90 pounds and in the wrong room), but it seems to be ok. even in my workshop, the AC looks pretty good without power conditioning.
so, for the sake my building my amps, we can assume my AC power is about as good as i care to get it. i dont know how else i could get better power. i could do regeneration, but thats not an option, i have far too much power draw. it would take a LOT of regenerators to do what i need.
cowanrg said:
note that the only Nichicons I know are the 16V and 50V variety used in a battery-powered DAC from 47uF through 10,000uF. Good value, but no match to Blackgates.
If you're budget is that tight, why not some Cornell-Dubliners?
Cornell-Dubliner 12,000uF 80V http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/CapacitorsElectrolytic.html $11.95
Panasonics:
Panasonic ECE-T2AP103FA 10,000uF 100V http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=300100&Row=424070&Site=US $14.08
Panasonic EEG-A2A103FHE. 10,000uF 100V http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=300100&Row=424212&Site=US $23.51
Panasonic ECE-P2AP103HA 10,000uF 100V http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=300100&Row=430254&Site=US $22.24
Panasonic ECE-T1KA103EA 10,000uF 80V http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=300100&Row=425102&Site=US $12.54
Panasonic ECE-T2AA682FA 6,800uF 100V http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=304148&Row=425383&Site=US $11.96
Panasonic ECE-T2AA822EA 8,200uF 100V http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=304975&Row=425103&Site=US $13.37
Peter
PS, I'm building 4 monoblocks as well, which is why I went with the UCD T-foil option over $$$Blackgates...
those will save you some cash now, upgrade later.
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