thinking about the UCD modules.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#142
cowanrg said:


if you have a good layout, PCB's are cheap to get made, check out this thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32339&highlight=

there a plenty of options. i was thinking about getting some custom boards made for my amps' 12v triggers, leds, etc. all that "accessory" stuff that i wanted on one board. i also wanted PCB's for my caps and stuff. i was looking at around $15 or so per board, which isnt bad. if you were doing the super regulator boards, you could get a large quantitiy made and sell them pretty easily, so you could get them cheaper.
Click to expand...


Clearly we've a different idea what cheap is.

Here's mine, Say a soft start board and super reg board for ooooh 10$ each, maaaaybe 20 by the time it gets here, in single quantity, not a min. of 5.
 
#143
your idea of cheap is practically free! thats unreasonable to think that someone would even bother setting up a machine to make a couple boards to sell for $10.

do more searching... i just looked again and found a few places that would do a board of your size for $15 - $20 each, and they only require you to buy 3. thats NOT much money. these arent home-made boards, but professional boards.

thats for one-off stuff. if you want a group-buy, it gets VERY cheap.
 
#144
cowanrg said:
your idea of cheap is practically free! thats unreasonable to think that someone would even bother setting up a machine to make a couple boards to sell for $10.

do more searching... i just looked again and found a few places that would do a board of your size for $15 - $20 each, and they only require you to buy 3. thats NOT much money. these arent home-made boards, but professional boards.

thats for one-off stuff. if you want a group-buy, it gets VERY cheap.
Click to expand...


I don't need to do more searching. Short of Chinese sweat shops no one will meet my expectations, but, thanks for the link 🙂

What is unreasonable is to think you'll be paying for 5+ or hell, 2+ boards just to test one prototype. Then what, throw the other four out? Maybe sell them to unknowing suckers? How about lap up the extra prototyping costs myself? No, that's unreasonable, much as it would be to think I'd get it perfect the first run.

Obviously it would then be far cheaper to go spend 75 a pop on the finished product, performance of which is unknown, also highly unreasonable since it cost them what, less than 5$ to produce? Also unreasonable.

Mac, Peter, either would be an improvement.
 
#145
testing a prototype? isnt that what a breadboard is for? the pcb should be your final working product, and unless you made a dumb mistake, it should work.

i mean, shouldnt the thing be fully tested and working BEFORE you go and make PCB's?

maybe you've never head the phrase "time is money". just because its $0.15 worth of plastic and copper doesnt mean it doesnt cost money. the machines and training to make the boards and setup the equipment is what you are paying for, its a deal.
 
#146
i was pushing 100dB at the listening position (sustained 100dB) and around 110dB closer to the speakers. they did so without tripping up at all.

i will say that they gave the maggies a lot more punch in the bass region. this isnt surprising because these speakers are VERY difficult to get to produce bass. its very good bass, but VERY weak when its there. but the UCD's enhanced that for sure.
Click to expand...

As a first impression, that is already impressive! 😀

Added to my list of UCD success stories! So you're coming from Rotel-1070 biamped - so that's 2 Rotel 1070's total you are using?

Imagine my face when I hooked up the 400's to my B&W 804's :bigeyes: - before they were powered by a '99 Yamaha DSP-A2, saving up for a Rotel 1080 or equivalent to do the front duties.

:bigeyes:
 
#147
cowanrg said:
testing a prototype? isnt that what a breadboard is for? the pcb should be your final working product, and unless you made a dumb mistake, it should work.

i mean, shouldnt the thing be fully tested and working BEFORE you go and make PCB's?

maybe you've never head the phrase "time is money". just because its $0.15 worth of plastic and copper doesnt mean it doesnt cost money. the machines and training to make the boards and setup the equipment is what you are paying for, its a deal.
Click to expand...

😱

I'm not convinced by cliche.

No it doesn't work that way. I thought you've made amps before? You don't seem familiar with the design process at all. :dodgy:

Ask Bruno how many revisions it took before it got to your final UCD PCB. I believe the answer was six, for the UCD180. Listening to your amp now, do you still think that's stupid?

PCB design is often considered more of an art than a science because the full science isn't known (by most people), myself included, and I'd have to be some kind of fool to think I'd get it to my liking (perfect) the first try. :cannotbe:

Just because it doesn't go up in smoke doesn't mean it's good enough. Breadboards are for testing basic circuit function, and rooting out what the simulator didn't tell you. PCB design and testing is the next step, often requiring many revisions, many prototypes. Prototypes are for testing. If it wasnt' required, no one would do it, they'd just make their first run a few thousand, and that, that would be stupid. So you see why I refuse to pay for 2+ "prototypes" when I'm more concerned with such things as proper operation over any form of destructive testing. I only need one to test/measure, then you revise and get another, then you test your second prototype, then you revise and get another, then you test your third prototype, then you revise and...... so on.

Incidently, some things aren't even worth prototyping on a breadboard, kind of like an ultra low noise aux supply.

I strive for perfection, or did you think I play here because it's easy and cheap?

I'd imagine in this day and age the PCB making process could be/is largely automated, input the gerber and let the machine go. Have you seen a job add for any place that makes PCB's? They don't pay their employee's enough to be able to drive to work, nor does it require an expensive education.

Perhaps with your income I'd be a little more extravagant. Bluntly, I'm telling you I can't afford such prototyping, regardless of the kind of deal you happen to think it may be.

If your own amp designs only had one PCB revision I dare say there's room for improvement.

There's just nothing cheap about R&D, even if you do download the circuit.

Anyway, I haven't any fancy SPL meters to impress my ears with, but with my UCD180's I had my vision blurr yesterday wich juice to spare, which was my goal for them power wise. How many SPL does that take? I imagine with 400's I'd reach the goal of feeling my spine kicked just like at a live concert🙂

Regards,
Chris
 
#148
classd4sure said:



Clearly we've a different idea what cheap is.

Here's mine, Say a soft start board and super reg board for ooooh 10$ each, maaaaybe 20 by the time it gets here, in single quantity, not a min. of 5.
Click to expand...


Cheap and single quantity are not terms that go together in DIY electronics, unless you are the one that spends the time and labor on the entire project. Even then, it usuall ends up costing much more than something that was made at quantity 5.

Been there, done that. Give me a nice board and I'll pay the price for the time and hassle saved. Nice boards with general use option actually can be sold in quantities much higher than 5 usually.

Peter
 
#149
pburke said:



Cheap and single quantity are not terms that go together in DIY electronics, unless you are the one that spends the time and labor on the entire project. Even then, it usuall ends up costing much more than something that was made at quantity 5.

Been there, done that. Give me a nice board and I'll pay the price for the time and hassle saved. Nice boards with general use option actually can be sold in quantities much higher than 5 usually.

Peter
Click to expand...

Especially when the first few runs turn out to be less than optimal and you still bought 5 of them. I'm sure most would just turn around and sell them on ebay or ..... someplace. I wouldn't. Nor would I soak up that cost myself. So I chose to avoid it, and accordingly expressed interest in Kevin's project, as I express some in Mac's board now, I've a method to my madness.

I'll make my own eventually, when I"m able.

Regards,
Chris
 
#150
The PCB is part of the design and it's layout is critical for high performance.

There are a number of companies who specialize in small volume PCB production for prototype work. That is just part of the process.

The final cost of a product obviously has to cover the development time and associated cost. We have to pay the bills, feed the kids and hopefully put a little in our pocket.

The small volume cost of the PARTS alone from Digikey & Mouser are just under $30 each. That is for a small transformer (115V & 220V) with 20V secondaries to power both a positive and negative regulated rails. That is not including the PCB cost.

My prototype boards cost $180 for four boards which will not be the final version. I'll go through at least one more prototype run (another $180) and I'll have a hundred or so hours in doing the boards and testing them. After that I'll probably buy 100 boards ($5 each) and I'll send them off to be populated which will end up costing another $5/board (guestimate).

My main reason for doing these is for another project I'm working on. I'd be happy to offer them for DIYers but that is not the primary purpose for them. I'd not sell just the boards because it leads to hundreds of support emails. It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell a board for $10 making five bucks and tie yourself to hundreds of emails and support calls. The only way I'd be willing to sell them is in a complete populated board where support issues could be minimized.
 
#152
i had music running through them from 1pm until about 1am yesterday. they are still breaking in, but they are getting better, i can tell. i havent been critically listening to them much, just background. i dont want to form impressions before they are sounding their best. plus, i want to swap back and forth just so i know what im hearing.

BUT, it makes the speakers sound great. my old amps did the same too, but once again, i dont have my true demo cds 😡
 
#155
I know they are... as soon as I start reading this thread, I've been looking into your main speakers on the 'net.

They're not only difficult loads, but they look absolutely different. If you don't know about them, it's like "where's the speakers?"

Good thing you don't have a wife though - Most girls would think they are made to hide stuff behind them... You'd probably end up with her changing clothes behind one or even worse... bra's hanging from the top of your speakers!

Now Now Yves... That's not nice 😀

Good thing I have a GF that appreciates good audio :angel:
 
#156
Yves Smolders said:
I know they are... as soon as I start reading this thread, I've been looking into your main speakers on the 'net.

They're not only difficult loads, but they look absolutely different. If you don't know about them, it's like "where's the speakers?"

Good thing you don't have a wife though - Most girls would think they are made to hide stuff behind them... You'd probably end up with her changing clothes behind one and use them to hang up clothes... :cannotbe:
Click to expand...


Actually, I had some females wonder if my speakers were "two treadmills tipped up to be out of the way"

kinda does look like it 🙂

http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/audio/

the cable guy came in and immediately asked "are those Bose?"
:bawling:

anyway - difficult to drive they are - that's why I am all over the UCD threads.

Peter
 
#158
when i worked at the audio store that sold B&W, i would be talking to a customer, and then all of a sudden, from out of my field of view, i would hear "why dont these microphones *grunt* come off!". i would turn around to see a guy trying to pull the "microphone" off the top of a b&w speaker. retards.

yep. no wife for me! but i am getting rid of those speakers very soon. my new ones are being shipped right now. they are just as tall, but quite a bit skinnier.

i wouldnt mind bras hanging on my speakers. in fact, i think it would be quite nice. it would give a very full figured sound 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom