cowanrg said:
talking about monoblocks - that's what I have in mind. However, I want to keep the option open to go to 2 channels in each, which really isn't a big deal for the UCD element (tiny), but regarding the power supply, I really would want to double up on it, or build it big enough for the dual layout right away.
Now, I don't like the idea of huge amps behind my maggies - the small size of Class D amps once you ignore the power supply is one of the attractions for me, given I may end up with 6 channels if I should go all the way one day and triamp the speakers.
One of the ideas I am contemplating right now is to build a remote power supply, possibly pseudo dual mono for the first two modules, place that centrally below or behind my rack, and feed the DC voltage to the UCD amps which reside in small enclosures each, just big enough for the final stage of capacitors and the modules themselves. Neutrik Powercon connections from remote PSU to the amp modules should be safe enough, using fat power cables, shielded, etc). That way I could add a second remote dual mono PSU, possibly a third without piling up large amps behind the speaker panels.
That's just a thought right now - does anyone see any issues with a remote PSU? has anyone do this before with power amps like these? I have seen it with preamps, turntables, etc, but can't think of any power amps with remote power supplies.
Peter
Cowanrg,
Why not a switch in parallel over the lightbulb? Turn on power, wait a few secs, then switch to short the bulb?
Why not a switch in parallel over the lightbulb? Turn on power, wait a few secs, then switch to short the bulb?
Yves,
i just dont want to go to a whole lot of trouble, KNOWING that im going to change it later. basically, simplest is best here, just to get them working so i can listen.
and listen i did!
i dont want to form a premature opinion just because im proud that I built them, so ill wait a little longer to form a complete impression. BUT, i will say they certainly arent any worse than my rotels. i cant hear a HUGE difference, but they certainly sound just as good. but, im just playing the usual cds that i like, NOT my test cds.
my friend borrowed all my "audiophile" test cds that really make it easy to her differences. plus, i havent switched back and forth at all yet. they do have the power to go loud though. i was pushing 100dB at the listening position (sustained 100dB) and around 110dB closer to the speakers. they did so without tripping up at all.
so, ill give it more time to break in (i have some 100W 8ohm dummy loads that will get abused here soon) and listen to some more cds. and, ill get my "good" cds back from my friend.
i will say that they gave the maggies a lot more punch in the bass region. this isnt surprising because these speakers are VERY difficult to get to produce bass. its very good bass, but VERY weak when its there. but the UCD's enhanced that for sure.
here is the test setup so everyone knows what im using and what im listening to...
amps: rotel b-1070 (biamped) compared to mono ucd-400's
speakers: magnepan tympani 1D's
subwoofers: dual velodyne DD-18's
source: denon dvd-3910
processor/preamp: rotel SP-1098
power: dual furman Elite-15PF's
power cords: audioquest NRG-2's
analog interconnects: audioquest jaguar 36v dbs
digital interconnects: audioquest VDM-5 dbs
speaker cables (bass): audioquest volcano 72v dbs
speaker cables (treble): audioquest mont blanc 36v dbs
sub cables: synergistic research res. ref. active
i just dont want to go to a whole lot of trouble, KNOWING that im going to change it later. basically, simplest is best here, just to get them working so i can listen.
and listen i did!
i dont want to form a premature opinion just because im proud that I built them, so ill wait a little longer to form a complete impression. BUT, i will say they certainly arent any worse than my rotels. i cant hear a HUGE difference, but they certainly sound just as good. but, im just playing the usual cds that i like, NOT my test cds.
my friend borrowed all my "audiophile" test cds that really make it easy to her differences. plus, i havent switched back and forth at all yet. they do have the power to go loud though. i was pushing 100dB at the listening position (sustained 100dB) and around 110dB closer to the speakers. they did so without tripping up at all.
so, ill give it more time to break in (i have some 100W 8ohm dummy loads that will get abused here soon) and listen to some more cds. and, ill get my "good" cds back from my friend.
i will say that they gave the maggies a lot more punch in the bass region. this isnt surprising because these speakers are VERY difficult to get to produce bass. its very good bass, but VERY weak when its there. but the UCD's enhanced that for sure.
here is the test setup so everyone knows what im using and what im listening to...
amps: rotel b-1070 (biamped) compared to mono ucd-400's
speakers: magnepan tympani 1D's
subwoofers: dual velodyne DD-18's
source: denon dvd-3910
processor/preamp: rotel SP-1098
power: dual furman Elite-15PF's
power cords: audioquest NRG-2's
analog interconnects: audioquest jaguar 36v dbs
digital interconnects: audioquest VDM-5 dbs
speaker cables (bass): audioquest volcano 72v dbs
speaker cables (treble): audioquest mont blanc 36v dbs
sub cables: synergistic research res. ref. active
Attachments
the actual amp setup. before anyone says anything...
1) yes, there is a lot of hot glue holding things in place. its just a temporary setup, and hot glue isnt anywhere where it would get hot and melt.
2) yes, the transformer is just sitting there, not mounted. i didnt have any mounting plates, it seems i lost the originals.
3) the heatsink gets a little warm, but even with the speakers as loud as i want to go, they never get uncomfortable, or close to hot.
1) yes, there is a lot of hot glue holding things in place. its just a temporary setup, and hot glue isnt anywhere where it would get hot and melt.
2) yes, the transformer is just sitting there, not mounted. i didnt have any mounting plates, it seems i lost the originals.
3) the heatsink gets a little warm, but even with the speakers as loud as i want to go, they never get uncomfortable, or close to hot.
Attachments
classd4sure said:
I double checked the Plitron site for what the audio line is all about. from what I can see, other than the shielding, the rest they offer is rather unimportant to me. The actual noise of the transformers is what makes up the most of the writeup there, and I do plan to put them in a well damped and solid enclosure, so that won't be an issue. Checked out their regular line and the 40V transformers of the same rating are less than half the price of the audio line. That leaves enough cash for the shielding and other enhancements, plus I am going to be in a safe range with UCD400 modules.
Now I gotta find me a 12V super regulator to tweak the UCD400s to the level of the 700s and then I can start getting serious about caps and other goodies.
General question: is it better to have one transformer per module than to share a single transformer of twice the rating for two modules? Beyond the transformers, I'll be building full mono circuits anyway, so it's probably irrelevant.
Peter
pburke said:
if it were me, i would do a transformer per module, rather than one larger one. its been talked about in the ucd400 and ucd180 threads, but you dont want to read all through those 🙂 its claimed that separate transformers "sounds better".
I just finished prototyping a board for that very use. ;-)
I'm still trying to optimize the board. I've read Jung's article at least a dozen times now and I've been pooring through the design notes at AD.
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why purpose is a 12v regulator for the UCD400? i know it has the opamp input stage, but can you power it with a separate supply?
cowanrg said:
It would be one of the most substantial tweaks.
Kevin, please keep me posted on that project, I'd be very interested in a few of those if the end cost wouldn't be retarded like you often see them going for.
Thanks,
Chris
cowanrg said:
The problem with that is it's far more expensive, and you _DO_ want to read those threads. Monoblocks always sound better.
Chris
pburke said:
pburke said:
See if you go with two smaller transformers instead of one larger one, then you have worse regulation which you also have to allow for, so more ripple, less power. I dont' see why you should cheap out on the transformer sizing (like all commercial off the shelf junk) just because you're doing monoblocks, its' trying to pinch pennies to save on the extra cost but... diminishing returns yes?
That's why I opted for one larger transformer of tighter regulation (5%) and powered it stereo in bi-phase, most bang for my buck.
With the mu-metal hugging my toroid I can't move anything in any way that would induce noise. So while a remote supply may be ... eccentric? to the stereo mag reviewer, it's really just silly on a cost basis, and absolutely _not_ a requirement. Choice is yours.
Good to see you're not buying into the plitron audio line.
Cheers,
Chris
i dont think he meant use a really small transformer, i think he was just looking for a comparison. for instance, which is better, a single 1000va transformer, or using individual 500va's.
reading the thread is not a bad idea, BUT, its LONG.
personally, i just prefer a 1.7KVA per monoblock
reading the thread is not a bad idea, BUT, its LONG.
personally, i just prefer a 1.7KVA per monoblock
cowanrg said:i dont think he meant use a really small transformer, i think he was just looking for a comparison. for instance, which is better, a single 1000va transformer, or using individual 500va's.
reading the thread is not a bad idea, BUT, its LONG.
personally, i just prefer a 1.7KVA per monoblock
you are correct. I am not totally focused on saving money. I want to build UCDs that sound better than my alternative, which would be another pair of $2800 Odyssey Mono extreme (and keeping the pair I already own, rather than sell it to offset some of the UCD costs), or even more exotic amps: I was just going through the current Krell and Levinson offerings at Audiogon... actually, those aren't that bad once the first owner takes a $6000 depreciation hit. On the other hand, I have built a lot of components in my system for a fraction of the cost of high end gear that I would not trade against what I have. I am actually expecting to outperform those commercial amp options, while still keeping the cost in check.
also, I don't really want massive space heaters as amps. Space is getting precious in my listening area (there are a lot of isolation transformers, batteries and other goodies filling up the available space, and large racks are just poison for the sound stage. Another large pair of Monoblocks is going to cause problems)
So, yes, I was thinking 750va and 750va for two channels, or a single 1500va. Cost is not really an issue as long as I can keep 4 channels below $3000 in total parts cost. It's a steal at that price compared to my other options.
I have read about half of the UCD400 builder thread. I need to re-read it (and I will) before I get serious. I'm still considering UCD 700s now that I realize the transformers are less expensive than I thought and may well fit into my budget.
I'll be building two monoblocks first, totally open on a project board like you just did. Based on that, I'll make decisions on enclosure, transformers, even module choices. If the 400s don't rock my bass panels, bigger guns will be called into action 🙂
If I like what I hear from the first build, expect me to push the envelope in the final build just a little further. The super regulator supply is just one thing I read about and believe will make a significant difference.
Peter
Kevin Haskins said:
Keep me posted on your progress - I've been all over the net for some boards (after I missed all the group buys), but so far have not really settled on what to do. I'd definitely be interested in boards that save me the hassle to try to understand how this stuff really works. All I care about is the end result 😉
Peter
You know what sucks the most about UCD from Hypex? They're well worth spending money on. You'll be hard pressed to find them as being the weak link in your system, especially with even just a few basic mods..
pburke said:
It's an extremely simple circuit, but proper layout and a good PCB will be far better than my P2P. Seems so very expensive to get a board made though, and I refuse to pay the commercial costs of them. So I'd be very interested as well, I'd imagine a group buy could made for them to keep the costs down for everyone.
pburke,
that was pretty much my process. ive done enough projects now to know that prototyping and testing is very important. trying to just plan something out and then throw it together is the wrong way to it. you need to throw it on a breadboard, listen to it, and see how it works.
ive done a lot of stuff where i thought that the layout would work one way, and when i actually built it, it turned out that it wouldnt work. so, testing would have been a better idea.
my idea with the UCD's was to get the 400's, see how well they work (in progress!), and then decide if i want to keep the 400's, if i need to step up to the 700's, OR, abandon class D completely. thankfully i had all the necessary parts to build a pair of monoblocks without any investment. i just bought the modules.
i might make these stereo amps, if there are funds. if i did that, i would just do dual 800va transformers and sell the 1.7KVA's. im not quite sure yet.
so far i really like them. i just watched a movie with them (charlie and the chocolate factory) and it was awesome. i hadnt seen it before, so i dont know how it would have sounded with my usual rotels, but it was impressive at least. thats all i care about. i dont want the best there is, i just want something thats enjoyable to listen to.
so far, they fit that bill just fine.
that was pretty much my process. ive done enough projects now to know that prototyping and testing is very important. trying to just plan something out and then throw it together is the wrong way to it. you need to throw it on a breadboard, listen to it, and see how it works.
ive done a lot of stuff where i thought that the layout would work one way, and when i actually built it, it turned out that it wouldnt work. so, testing would have been a better idea.
my idea with the UCD's was to get the 400's, see how well they work (in progress!), and then decide if i want to keep the 400's, if i need to step up to the 700's, OR, abandon class D completely. thankfully i had all the necessary parts to build a pair of monoblocks without any investment. i just bought the modules.
i might make these stereo amps, if there are funds. if i did that, i would just do dual 800va transformers and sell the 1.7KVA's. im not quite sure yet.
so far i really like them. i just watched a movie with them (charlie and the chocolate factory) and it was awesome. i hadnt seen it before, so i dont know how it would have sounded with my usual rotels, but it was impressive at least. thats all i care about. i dont want the best there is, i just want something thats enjoyable to listen to.
so far, they fit that bill just fine.
classd4sure said:
if you have a good layout, PCB's are cheap to get made, check out this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32339&highlight=
there a plenty of options. i was thinking about getting some custom boards made for my amps' 12v triggers, leds, etc. all that "accessory" stuff that i wanted on one board. i also wanted PCB's for my caps and stuff. i was looking at around $15 or so per board, which isnt bad. if you were doing the super regulator boards, you could get a large quantitiy made and sell them pretty easily, so you could get them cheaper.
Kevin Haskins said:
A friend and I did a Sulzer-Boberly regulator board (supposedly superior to the Jung) which I'm using in my Orion crossover. I think using a super regulator with the UcD is a killer idea. I believe one board will work for at least 8 AD8620's. I look forward to hearing (reading) how they work out for you.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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