Sorry i wasn't clear. But what is the practical difference in this case?
Is is just a number in the datasheet or something that will effect the final performance of the amp, in that case which parameters should i look for and within which values? This might be a dumb question but i have never used SSR before (only worked with small signal, low power electronics).
Found some cheap SSRs which could handle 3-32V input, 380VAC, 25A output which is good enough for me at least. But is there something else wrong with these?
http://www.fotek.com.hk/solid/SSR-1.htm
FOTEC SSR-25-DA
Is is just a number in the datasheet or something that will effect the final performance of the amp, in that case which parameters should i look for and within which values? This might be a dumb question but i have never used SSR before (only worked with small signal, low power electronics).
Found some cheap SSRs which could handle 3-32V input, 380VAC, 25A output which is good enough for me at least. But is there something else wrong with these?
http://www.fotek.com.hk/solid/SSR-1.htm
FOTEC SSR-25-DA
Automation hiatus
After a re-evaluation of my near-term priorities I have no room for progressing automation ideas we've discussed. Anyone else want to have a go at it in the mean time?
I did have some further thoughts on the ideas before deciding to put it on ice for a while, this only added to my desire to wait a while on it though. The forthcoming Raspberry Pi Arm based board could make a very nice Mothership+USB Source all in one device, for minimal cost difference to an arduino board with ethernet, likely cheaper! They aren't available, yet, though shall be soon.
I have settled on the xbee wireless modules as my local controller board of choice, with a simple breakout board and regulator they can probably achieve everything we would like through its I/O ports. A pcb like this could easily enable that I'd say - XBee Explorer Regulated - SparkFun Electronics
In 6 months or so I hope to fire up this as a project, till then I'd rather make sure I have my funds directed to amps and power supplies and enclosures to ensure I get them built without compromise. If anyone wants to start up some similar project and make it open enough then I would happily contribute.
After a re-evaluation of my near-term priorities I have no room for progressing automation ideas we've discussed. Anyone else want to have a go at it in the mean time?
I did have some further thoughts on the ideas before deciding to put it on ice for a while, this only added to my desire to wait a while on it though. The forthcoming Raspberry Pi Arm based board could make a very nice Mothership+USB Source all in one device, for minimal cost difference to an arduino board with ethernet, likely cheaper! They aren't available, yet, though shall be soon.
I have settled on the xbee wireless modules as my local controller board of choice, with a simple breakout board and regulator they can probably achieve everything we would like through its I/O ports. A pcb like this could easily enable that I'd say - XBee Explorer Regulated - SparkFun Electronics
In 6 months or so I hope to fire up this as a project, till then I'd rather make sure I have my funds directed to amps and power supplies and enclosures to ensure I get them built without compromise. If anyone wants to start up some similar project and make it open enough then I would happily contribute.
well that blows a bit, already put our ideas forward to acko a couple days ago as discussed. guess you gotta do what you gotta do....
Its something I'll need in the long run for my own system, I will pick it up again.
If we're wanting to setup enclosure for these now then this is what I expect requirements may be:
- 3 - 5VDC @ 200mA supply of your choice, probably external to the enclosure.
- XBee series 1 - XBee 1mW Series 1
- XBee regulated breakout board - XBee Explorer Regulated - SparkFun Electronics (L~35mmxW~30mm) height not specified on that site but I'm guessing 10 or 15mm will cover it.
- SSR
- lm335a for temp sensor
- transistor circuit of your choice to drive SSR if DC current required is more than an xbee can supply. Wire this point to point.
SSR preference and the XBee dimensions above are main requirement for enclosures ability to accomodate the automation setup.
Since I haven't got one of these on hand to test I can confirm how good they are at penetrating through alu unfortunately. There is 2mW and 60mW output units with roughly the same dimensions/profile so if range is an issue just ramp up the power 😀. I did test some earlier versions of these for a vacation job (they bought me a Maxstream dev kit that I stupidly left with them) I had in 05/06 ... from memory we'll be ok for range 😀
Another advantage to using an xbee is that its power supply is the only addition to the rear pannel over a 'normal' amp enclosure design.
The above requirements ignore 'the mothership + display' assuming these won't be built into any amplifier enclosures so aren't important at this stage.
If we're wanting to setup enclosure for these now then this is what I expect requirements may be:
- 3 - 5VDC @ 200mA supply of your choice, probably external to the enclosure.
- XBee series 1 - XBee 1mW Series 1
- XBee regulated breakout board - XBee Explorer Regulated - SparkFun Electronics (L~35mmxW~30mm) height not specified on that site but I'm guessing 10 or 15mm will cover it.
- SSR
- lm335a for temp sensor
- transistor circuit of your choice to drive SSR if DC current required is more than an xbee can supply. Wire this point to point.
SSR preference and the XBee dimensions above are main requirement for enclosures ability to accomodate the automation setup.
Since I haven't got one of these on hand to test I can confirm how good they are at penetrating through alu unfortunately. There is 2mW and 60mW output units with roughly the same dimensions/profile so if range is an issue just ramp up the power 😀. I did test some earlier versions of these for a vacation job (they bought me a Maxstream dev kit that I stupidly left with them) I had in 05/06 ... from memory we'll be ok for range 😀
Another advantage to using an xbee is that its power supply is the only addition to the rear pannel over a 'normal' amp enclosure design.
The above requirements ignore 'the mothership + display' assuming these won't be built into any amplifier enclosures so aren't important at this stage.
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so i take it that pad on the XBee is u.fl ? thats what it looks like, so can use wired or wireless protocol yes? i do like that they are 802.1 so can be directly controlled by my airport and even subsequent airtunes nodes. i do like the look of these little suckers, so you reckon Rasberry Pi is definitely the way to go over the more developed arduino? definitely more powerful and flexible
hey that regulated breakout at Sparkfun looks to have some issues we would want to avoid, we really should just spin up a board with a proper regulator and level shifter on it
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That one has antenna in that blue/white chip at the top of the board. There are some that support off board antenna but not much chance you'll be doing a hard wired version though, I don't think the antenna output would work like that.
They're not going to work with your airport though. They talk IEEE802.15.4 protocol, your airport is some version of IEEE802.11n (there are a few customisations of n because there was a bunch built before the standard was ratified). They are just low powered wireless serial connections with some firmware that lets you control a couple of io points (analogue or digital). They're more like bluetooth than wifi (802.11[abgn]) though. There is a bunch of different wireless topologies they can handle but ... well we don't really need wireless mesh network for this since everything will be pretty close together.
You can get a usb version of the regulated breakout board that lets any computer hook into a network of the suckers from a computer. So really we could control the lot without a raspberry pi and just have the control / interface software running on a computer, that forces everyone to have a computer running all the time though, I wasn't going to assume that though.
Raspberry Pi is about as powerful as something like a iPhone 4 but has hardware multimedia chip so can actually decode 1080p h264 movies in realtime. It will run a version of linux and the $35 version has a 100MBit network port. The gpio port has i2c and a bunch of digital i/o. I think we should be able to control dac from there and some sort of local display.
The raspberry pi addition really paints Wolfsin into a corner when he called our previous idea a 'moonshoot solution'.
EDIT: What are the issues on the sparkfun board? Would say this board - http://www.adafruit.com/products/126 - have any of them fixed?
Also, I'd seen that about the flooding of their factory, there are reasonable levels of stock at most suppliers currently though.
They're not going to work with your airport though. They talk IEEE802.15.4 protocol, your airport is some version of IEEE802.11n (there are a few customisations of n because there was a bunch built before the standard was ratified). They are just low powered wireless serial connections with some firmware that lets you control a couple of io points (analogue or digital). They're more like bluetooth than wifi (802.11[abgn]) though. There is a bunch of different wireless topologies they can handle but ... well we don't really need wireless mesh network for this since everything will be pretty close together.
You can get a usb version of the regulated breakout board that lets any computer hook into a network of the suckers from a computer. So really we could control the lot without a raspberry pi and just have the control / interface software running on a computer, that forces everyone to have a computer running all the time though, I wasn't going to assume that though.
Raspberry Pi is about as powerful as something like a iPhone 4 but has hardware multimedia chip so can actually decode 1080p h264 movies in realtime. It will run a version of linux and the $35 version has a 100MBit network port. The gpio port has i2c and a bunch of digital i/o. I think we should be able to control dac from there and some sort of local display.
The raspberry pi addition really paints Wolfsin into a corner when he called our previous idea a 'moonshoot solution'.
EDIT: What are the issues on the sparkfun board? Would say this board - http://www.adafruit.com/products/126 - have any of them fixed?
Also, I'd seen that about the flooding of their factory, there are reasonable levels of stock at most suppliers currently though.
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sure looks like it would, not hardwired so to speak, just an aerial like this outside the case if need be connected by u.fl or SMA
ok youre the expert, the mac mini i5 coms cluster speaks many languages though if need be
yeah best to leave the option for it being completely independent from a computer if desired
someone on here has a thread where he plans to make a wireless brutefir crossover with them, built into each speaker
indeed, where are we shooting now if the moon before?
not enough current capability on the onboard reg for basic functionality of the latest gen hardware, failed level shifting, a diode that needs shorting or it drops too much voltage and doesnt supply a logic level high for 3v3 or 5v. they basically opened an entire can of fail on it
Yeah, you're right, there are different versions of the modules available, some with different firmware, the series 1 set of boards fit the bill for us and are the cheapest. There are versions with: chip, wire (as pictured in your post) as well as u.fl or rpsma if you wish to BYO antenna. There also is a variety of transmission power variations: 1mW, 2mW and 65mW (maybe 100mW now too?).
The chip or short wire antenna in the 1 or 2mW versions really should get us over the line for range. For anything in the same room these are neat, tiny and easy to use. Going much further than through one wall is a challenge.
If we run out of range we can chose between either going to a fancier firmware on the lower powered modules and use the fancy self healing mesh networks that a zigbee layer allows. Or a higher powered signal. Both of these add cost and I think we won't need them. IF we find that they're necessary we can add that with simply slotting a new module in the socket and the rest is all pin compatible and probably even no need to change backend system software since that layer becomes transparent even to the 'mothership' device.
The current capability was something I had read about and disregarded because it really only is of concern if you're going for the higher output xbee modules, the newest 1 or 2mW units only need roughly 50mW under max load. The rest of those concerns are addressed in the adafruit pcb design.
You're probably right, I'd rather not be perpetuating bad design, the adafruit board fixes the issues, has proper level shifting and is only marginally larger at 26mm x 40mm x 11mm (1in x 1.5in x 0.4in). It is still around the same price at $10 in a kit that you assemble yourself. We can actually buy pcb alone for $USD4.50ea if we buy more than 10 and populate with our own parts. We'd struggle to beat that price especially when we can chose to populate only the parts that are needed to get our application functioning. If we want to modify/shrink/tweak the design slightly the files are all here - XBee Adapter - Downloads - under a CC Attribution/Share-alike license. 😎
EDIT: I should have made it clearer before now, the reason we're not hooking these directly to a wifi network or bluetooth is: both of those are considerably more costly/sizable and don't offer the flexibility/transparency that these do. While it might be nice to be able to address each amplifier over a wifi network, its not something I'd personally want to do very often and I'm happy to let a 'mothership' unit do it all for me and present the information in a web interface.
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yes i gathered that and i'm not really suggesting we do, but i would like to be able to control or monitor the mothership via wifi ideally with ipad for a remote.
anyway we should probably take this to email, nobody else seems to be participating, is this stuff really of no interest to anyone else? even the base level synchronized/sequenced remote power cycling for multiple amplifiers and dacs for digital crossover networks?
or is there just noone around, or people are concerned about wifi heeby jeebies?
i'm a little concerned at the lack of activity here and in the GB thread when the boards are all on the way
where is everyone? did we scare everyone away?
anyway we should probably take this to email, nobody else seems to be participating, is this stuff really of no interest to anyone else? even the base level synchronized/sequenced remote power cycling for multiple amplifiers and dacs for digital crossover networks?
or is there just noone around, or people are concerned about wifi heeby jeebies?
i'm a little concerned at the lack of activity here and in the GB thread when the boards are all on the way
where is everyone? did we scare everyone away?
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Hi Guys,
In hindsight, the entire system control topic should have been started in its own thread, as it really doesn't have anything to do with a minimalist power amplifier. I might ask a moderator to move it all, but it would be a lot of work at this point.
From here on in, let's keep this on topic, and only about the amp/chassis/heatsink.
I posted in the other thread about the transformer, and I'll porbably copy that over here as well.
I've also attached a picture of another idea for the heatsink. The bottom section is optional, and probably does more to improve mecahnical integrity than it would to dissipate heat. A plain aluminum plate would probably be just fine.
Cheers,
Owen
In hindsight, the entire system control topic should have been started in its own thread, as it really doesn't have anything to do with a minimalist power amplifier. I might ask a moderator to move it all, but it would be a lot of work at this point.
From here on in, let's keep this on topic, and only about the amp/chassis/heatsink.
I posted in the other thread about the transformer, and I'll porbably copy that over here as well.
I've also attached a picture of another idea for the heatsink. The bottom section is optional, and probably does more to improve mecahnical integrity than it would to dissipate heat. A plain aluminum plate would probably be just fine.
Cheers,
Owen
Attachments
Well, I went through and checked everything:
If a mod has some free time, could they move the following to a separate thread:
203 – 209
211 – 228
242 – 256
258 – 270
That should be everything about the I/O and system controller. It's not that I disapprove in any way, but it really has veered far enough off-topic that it really deservers a dedicated thread where you guys can discuss it.
qusp, can you start a thread for this?
Cheers,
Owen
If a mod has some free time, could they move the following to a separate thread:
203 – 209
211 – 228
242 – 256
258 – 270
That should be everything about the I/O and system controller. It's not that I disapprove in any way, but it really has veered far enough off-topic that it really deservers a dedicated thread where you guys can discuss it.
qusp, can you start a thread for this?
Cheers,
Owen
Just enjoying reading. There are many alternative shields compatible with XBee. Serial and / or wi-fi are 'just' comm. I will proto using serial anyway and the mothership MUST have more HP anyway IMO. I prefer winders because of my app/driver/kernel experience there but the future belongs to linux, me thinks.
Software filtering and awesome automation opportunities await those of us who might think 'this is as good as it getz'. Keep in mind, however, we are breathing fairly rarified bitz as it iz!
we discussed starting a thread for it earlier when we first started talking about it, but i couldnt think of where to start it as there is no sub-forum for control systems. So i thought that A. since it was at that stage and still is fairly specific to this design and the wire power amp and tbh the thread was already so fragmented by telling people there were no boards left and with the GB thread over and done with, with no development info to speak of and a build thread about to be started; i actually thought this might be the best place for it.
that being said i didnt expect it to go on so long. so i'm happy to start another thread, if I could:
A. figure out where the hell to put it
B. fully decide the scope of it
the goal is to avoid getting too bogged down in catering to every amp and dac out there i wanted to keep a pretty small focus on the wire amps, with the dac control flowing on from that perhaps even privately as i have a pretty good idea of what i want, as does Chris.
we really need to start a build thread for the LPUHP and 'the wire with laterals'; rather than asking the mods to clean it up I actually think that the cleanest way to move forward is to have all relevant info in one place and be useful to the rather small (can i say elite? =) group of builders without the GB mixed
the trend for your development threads transmogrifying into GB threads and then into build threads isnt the most efficient either, not your fault, i guess people start posting build questions in the GB thread before a build thread is opened and the rest is history. something I hope changes with the 2G wire PCBs and the speaker amps (though of course i wont start all of them, perhaps wolfsin for the headamp?)
you with me? in short, this thread has served its purpose already has it not? what more is there to add aside from build info? which should really be somewhere else. these are not statements, genuine questions, just explaining my thought process, because i did think before talking about it here
as far as changing the focus of the wire amps minimal nature high performance, that is not the intentionl, the only additions are a relay for on/off and a temp sensor or 2 with some way of getting that info out to an external monitor/control (not in circuit). all the control stuff is supposed to be external but centrally located and have the ability to sequence the turn on and off for multichannel crossovers and overtemp sense/shutdown while we're at it.
most of which, given the content and use many seem to be having for both amps, seems pretty much smack bang in the focus of this amp tbh. but i will of course respect your wishes, but where?
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I appreciate the thought, qusp, but I have been dazzled by the debugging you and opc have brought to the headThread. I will post more in a thread on frankenwires because the blogs in diyAudio are, how shall we say . . . Also, my expertise is MUCH more digital and software oriented and I feel the need for real expertise as you and opc offered here and John Curl offered in the JC-80 thread.
Perhaps "the wire" deserves its own category to unify the 'elite', not to mention 'discerning', 'enlightened', etc. special interests 🙄
sorry for the ramble, add post 274 to the list mods
wolfsin, i really dont know how to read your above post, did you miss the smiley after elite? or am i just tired?
debugging bedazzlement? lately weve had one person who had the psu polarity swapped and another who was using the rework board unknowingly which resulted in the same =D both surprisingly with happy outcomes! which hints at the ruggedness of this amp as well
wolfsin, i really dont know how to read your above post, did you miss the smiley after elite? or am i just tired?
debugging bedazzlement? lately weve had one person who had the psu polarity swapped and another who was using the rework board unknowingly which resulted in the same =D both surprisingly with happy outcomes! which hints at the ruggedness of this amp as well
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opc, apologies for dragging the thread on the tangent, I'll discuss with qusp in email regarding scope of the ideas and we will find a more appropriate location since between us we seem the most interested in it at this stage. I'd rather leave the discussions so far out of any new thread.
qusp, I think Wolfsin is just riffing with you on the use of elite since you included it in your earlier exposition 😀
qusp, I think Wolfsin is just riffing with you on the use of elite since you included it in your earlier exposition 😀
by looking at the attachment, is it good to expose the negative rail with the copper through heatsink?
I am not good in this, but i am just aware some sort of antenna effects would induce to the voltage rail.
I am not good in this, but i am just aware some sort of antenna effects would induce to the voltage rail.
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Owen: Heatsink ideas noted. I'll finish the design when the boards arrive and submit it for approval 🙂
qusp, hochopeper: I'm very interested in the control/monitor solutions you guys are working on. Separate thread would probably be a good idea and I wouldn't be surprised if you picked up some useful contributions that way. I'm sure there are others with similar ideas that wouldn't be looking here
hochopeper: Would you consider a separate thread regarding minidsp mods? I'd like to know what you're planning as I'm also looking to bypass the stock dac/output stage. I'm not keen on feeding my wire amps this:
New miniDSP 2x8 / 4x10 card
qusp, hochopeper: I'm very interested in the control/monitor solutions you guys are working on. Separate thread would probably be a good idea and I wouldn't be surprised if you picked up some useful contributions that way. I'm sure there are others with similar ideas that wouldn't be looking here
hochopeper: Would you consider a separate thread regarding minidsp mods? I'd like to know what you're planning as I'm also looking to bypass the stock dac/output stage. I'm not keen on feeding my wire amps this:
New miniDSP 2x8 / 4x10 card