Not Alloy then
Hey Steve, yeah, I guess it´s important to highlight the difference.
The Sonic domes are then just an ordinary metal which has been basically PAINTED
Wow, how confidence inspiring.
So....The jewelry isn´t even gold plated, it´s of the spray on kind!
If so, how can Usher still dare to be promoting this as beryllium anything?
Oh yeah, i forgot...... CHA-CHING$$$
Hey Steve, yeah, I guess it´s important to highlight the difference.
The Sonic domes are then just an ordinary metal which has been basically PAINTED
Wow, how confidence inspiring.
So....The jewelry isn´t even gold plated, it´s of the spray on kind!
If so, how can Usher still dare to be promoting this as beryllium anything?
Oh yeah, i forgot...... CHA-CHING$$$
Guys, the level of personal attacks is starting to rise. It's fine to discuss diaphragms, it is NOT fine to discuss one another or so-called national characteristics. I won't warn again, just start binning offenders.
Re: In case someone missed the OBVIOUS
I am trying to see things objectively. I feel that the industry is trying to mislead the people to think that pure Be is a better material for drivers. Up to now, no data convincingly shows that. I think this is a form of fraud too.Santiago53 said:
mowry said:
Now that might be an interesting material to work with. Are there any AlBeMet domes out there? Any better than other standard Alu alloys?
Brush Wellman make the alloy, BTW.
Re: Not Alloy then
Yes I'm afraid the domes are painted or deposited.
It's gotten to the point if Sonic or Usher says something then there is a high probability that what they say is misinformation.
I don't mind taking a beating but I would like to see some level of appreciation for the work it took to expose these guys.
Some folk do appreciate and Roy Allison said this.
From: Roy Allison
To: stephen_mowry@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: The truth
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:23:08 -0400
Steve,
This is an important story and must be the result of many, many hours of work. Where will it be published? Or has it been published and I missed it?
Congratulations on a brilliant bit of investigative reporting.
Regards,
Roy
FYI: I have not made one cent on this project.
I am from the Boston area. If you bite me, then I'm likely to bite you back.
Santiago53 said:
Yes I'm afraid the domes are painted or deposited.
It's gotten to the point if Sonic or Usher says something then there is a high probability that what they say is misinformation.
I don't mind taking a beating but I would like to see some level of appreciation for the work it took to expose these guys.
Some folk do appreciate and Roy Allison said this.
From: Roy Allison
To: stephen_mowry@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: The truth
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:23:08 -0400
Steve,
This is an important story and must be the result of many, many hours of work. Where will it be published? Or has it been published and I missed it?
Congratulations on a brilliant bit of investigative reporting.
Regards,
Roy
FYI: I have not made one cent on this project.
I am from the Boston area. If you bite me, then I'm likely to bite you back.
SoongC
I too would like to see a full set of measurements, especially on a commercially viable and diy available driver with Beryllium domes. Based on what i have seen in Steve´s technical papers, his research looks solid and I would love to see a finished product based on that.
hopefully Steve will be able to offer us just that, excellent drivers, at fair prices, with the measurements to back it up.
in the meantime, if you have something already measured, and you´re not just here to size up the competition, why not share your discoveries with us?
Why are you holding your cards so close to your chest?
I too would like to see a full set of measurements, especially on a commercially viable and diy available driver with Beryllium domes. Based on what i have seen in Steve´s technical papers, his research looks solid and I would love to see a finished product based on that.
hopefully Steve will be able to offer us just that, excellent drivers, at fair prices, with the measurements to back it up.
in the meantime, if you have something already measured, and you´re not just here to size up the competition, why not share your discoveries with us?
Why are you holding your cards so close to your chest?
If you look through most of my posts, I mostly post data when the discussion is objective. One thing I hate is lots of people doing a bunch of talk, but never admit they really have nothing to show. In this case, it is Be material. So, this time, I will wait for the people whom started the whole issue to prove that Be is better using their own measured data.Santiago53 said:
Let's look at Usher. Since I began my postings, the prices of their products have fallen significantly. Just use google.com and search the Internet. Now for those who have been biting me, please take note. I am battling for the comsumer.
Additionally, I believe that I have put a deterent in place and have sent a message that "Truth in Advertising" is a must within the loudspeaker industry.
Usher talks tough but they will pay a high price for their actions. The economic crisis caused a 30% reductiuon in sales now the Bogusium-gate has come into the picture and will cause an additional reduction in sales. Clearly this issue is not a premium for Usher.
Now the way not to address this problem is by attacking me. My advertising is as true as I can make it. Usher has mislead the consumer but they didn't know.
Additionally, I believe that I have put a deterent in place and have sent a message that "Truth in Advertising" is a must within the loudspeaker industry.
Usher talks tough but they will pay a high price for their actions. The economic crisis caused a 30% reductiuon in sales now the Bogusium-gate has come into the picture and will cause an additional reduction in sales. Clearly this issue is not a premium for Usher.
Now the way not to address this problem is by attacking me. My advertising is as true as I can make it. Usher has mislead the consumer but they didn't know.
"Do you have any information on reall audio drivers showing how much better Be drivers are?"
Hello Soongsc
The only measurements I can provide are for the uncoated BeO in JBL 2435'S. If you look at a CSD measurement for them they are remarkably clean. I have a pair of Aluminum 2431 diaphrams but they have been coated with aguaplas so you can't make a direct comparison between the 2 metals under the same test conditions. Not that what we are going to see is all that meaningful. Interesting to try though just for fun.
Hello Zilch
Do you have a any PTH1010 waveguides and a 2431 less aqua?? I will post a CSD for an uncoated Be diaphram and see what the difference is. You game?? Or do you have an uncoated 2435 and 2431 to measure and compare??
Rob🙂
Hello Soongsc
The only measurements I can provide are for the uncoated BeO in JBL 2435'S. If you look at a CSD measurement for them they are remarkably clean. I have a pair of Aluminum 2431 diaphrams but they have been coated with aguaplas so you can't make a direct comparison between the 2 metals under the same test conditions. Not that what we are going to see is all that meaningful. Interesting to try though just for fun.
Hello Zilch
Do you have a any PTH1010 waveguides and a 2431 less aqua?? I will post a CSD for an uncoated Be diaphram and see what the difference is. You game?? Or do you have an uncoated 2435 and 2431 to measure and compare??
Rob🙂
Hey Steve
As soon as I read Usher's reply I knew that they were going to get burned, and rightly so. Once this was made public, they had no responsible choice, but to appologize and withdraw either the advertising or the products. Even if the attacks were somewhat "extreme". (I don't know that they were, but thats what Usher would have us believe.) Their position was untenable and they made the mistake, as many do, to try and fight against the truth. That is a fight that is hard to win and virtually impossible in the long run.
Have you posted this on many other forums?
As soon as I read Usher's reply I knew that they were going to get burned, and rightly so. Once this was made public, they had no responsible choice, but to appologize and withdraw either the advertising or the products. Even if the attacks were somewhat "extreme". (I don't know that they were, but thats what Usher would have us believe.) Their position was untenable and they made the mistake, as many do, to try and fight against the truth. That is a fight that is hard to win and virtually impossible in the long run.
Have you posted this on many other forums?
I currently do not have information on compression drivers, but for direct radiating drivers I have not seen any 1" drivers that come out clean. I normally look at the first 0.4ms range, and then 4ms range.Robh3606 said:
Fast CSD is generally based on overall driver design skills rather than just the diaphragm. In compression drivers, there seem to be much more aspects that control CSD characteristics than direct radiating drivers because there are more options to control damping.
So it would not seem to make sense to compare different driver categories.
It isn't btw. that uncommon, that Loudspeaker manufacturers make untrue claims about materials employd in their speakers.
I denounced recently at TAS's AVguide forum the false claim of Magico, that the cones or their speakers use carbon nanotubes.
here from their website :
After 4 years of extensive development, Magico LLC is proud to unveil its new line of transducers. Designed from the ground up by our CTO Yair Tammam, the Nano-Tec® drivers are the first transducers that use carbon nanotubes in their cone construction.
These cones operate as perfect pistons throughout their entire operating range.
http://www.avguide.com/forums/magico-m5-loudspeakers?page=3
see the last post.
Robert
Magico claims that the cones of the M5 use carbon nanotubes. How comes, if these are still in the laboratory of chinese researchers, in development, and do have absolutely nothing to do with normal speaker cones, but are thin sheets and films ?
http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/chinese-researchers-create-speaker-...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15098?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=specrt14...
No answer from Robert Harley about this.......that shows how biased these Audio magazine rewievers are.
Angelo
I denounced recently at TAS's AVguide forum the false claim of Magico, that the cones or their speakers use carbon nanotubes.
here from their website :
After 4 years of extensive development, Magico LLC is proud to unveil its new line of transducers. Designed from the ground up by our CTO Yair Tammam, the Nano-Tec® drivers are the first transducers that use carbon nanotubes in their cone construction.
These cones operate as perfect pistons throughout their entire operating range.
http://www.avguide.com/forums/magico-m5-loudspeakers?page=3
see the last post.
Robert
Magico claims that the cones of the M5 use carbon nanotubes. How comes, if these are still in the laboratory of chinese researchers, in development, and do have absolutely nothing to do with normal speaker cones, but are thin sheets and films ?
http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/chinese-researchers-create-speaker-...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15098?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=specrt14...
No answer from Robert Harley about this.......that shows how biased these Audio magazine rewievers are.
Angelo
As I mentioned before, I beleive somewhere along the line, there was some miscommunication. I don't beleive we will find out exactly how it occurred, but having delt with some individuals in the past few years, I can understand how it can occur. That is why whenever there is any cooperation, we do our best to put understanding in writing for each and every case when the time is right. Whenever there is a dispute, generally the contract is referred to.mowry said:
soongsc said:
Soongsc
Does this point have anything to do with the current situation? There is no "contract" between the seller and the buyer to "refer to". If I had the Usher speakers that were misrepresented I would want my money back. Do you think that will happen?
Its precisely this lack of a "contract" that allows marketing to do this kind of thing - there is no accountability.
And I don't see where there was any misunderstanding either. Usher understood completely, Steve understands completely, there IS no misunderstanding. There is denial and lack of accountability, thats obvious. But everyone is communicating just fine.
Steve - I would go lightly on Joe DiAppolito as he is not in a position to have encouraged or discouraged this. In other words he cannot be held accountable or responsible. He is only a consultant - you know those guys right? How many of your clients would change their ads if you said "Hey, thats not right!"?
I don't think there is any miscommuncation between Steve and Usher. But communication along the supply chain to Usher, this could be possible. This is just based on my experience dealling with the guys here.gedlee said:
If you were in Taiwan, yes you could get your money back. Very similar cases occured here, and the court did provide such ruling. Most cases, things like this are settled through the Consumer Association even before entering the court. But I do not know what the situation is in other countries.
I'm sure you understand that some people will take corrective actions without admitting they are wrong. I even have a case like this.
soongsc said:
This is possible, but I am not sure how likely.
My wife, who IS Chinese, would say that the Chinese would figure "What they don't know won't hurt them - buyer beware." Shame on them. But Usher SHOULD know their product better, especially claims that are advertised. Shame on them too.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.