The Whole Truth About Beryllium Diaphragms

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#187
ZilchLab said:
I am searching for the JBL Pro tech note showing via laser interferometry that 2435HPL operates pistonically out past 13 kHz. Anybody have that link?

Edit: Fig. 40 here:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=216&doctype=3
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The difference you see is due to due to different bending wave lengths. Unless we look at both this Fig 40 and the impulse, the SPL, and CSD, to draw conclusions from Fig 40 alone could be misleading.
 
#189
soongsc said:

The difference you see is due to due to different bending wave lengths. Unless we look at both this Fig 40 and the impulse, the SPL, and CSD, to draw conclusions from Fig 40 alone could be misleading.
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SPL is at fig. 29.

You can generate the rest yourself. I don't have any 3" titaniums, so I can't do that for you, only aluminums.

What is your stance here, that SONIC cannot be faulted because:

1) They never claimed their beryllium diaphragms were actually beryllium,

2) They never claimed they were better than anything else, and

3) Thus, the manufacturers who bought their fakes and promoted them as what they mistakenly believed them to be are at fault here?

Those guys were at the trade shows hyping their wares as beryllium to any and all unwary who would buy the deception. There's a pattern of dishonesty here, which in certain other commodities has netted the perpetrators incarceration and even execution, I do believe....
 
#190
soongsc said:

I wonder what kind of smoothing they used on the data. I also wonder whether they used the same driver mechanical structure. Since it shows "Brand X" I wonder...

🙄
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I have no clue what "Brand X" is, but the mechanical structure of 2435HPL is illustrated there and the PWT curves title says 1/3 octave.

You asked for evidence, there it is, and you can easily satisfy yourself as to the validity of that disclosure. I'd guess JBL has millions invested in researching the technology, and they're not particularly known for stretching the truth in AES convention papers.

They also sell Be supertweeters with domes manufactured via vapor deposition through their Consumer division, model 045Be, and we can pretty much surmise who's making those.....
 
#191
ZilchLab said:


SPL is at fig. 29.

You can generate the rest yourself. I don't have any 3" titaniums, so I can't do that for you, only aluminums.

What is your stance here, that SONIC cannot be faulted because:

1) They never claimed their beryllium diaphragms were actually beryllium,

2) They never claimed they were better than anything else, and

3) Thus, the manufacturers who bought their fakes and promoted them as what they mistakenly believed them to be are at fault here?

Those guys were at the trade shows hyping their wares as beryllium to any and all unwary who would buy the deception. There's a pattern of dishonesty here, which in certain other commodities has netted the perpetrators incarceration and even execution, I do believe....
Click to expand...
I think somebody is out there trying to create the impression that Be is superior. I'm just saying that the study is inconclusive and lacking in many ways.

Well, I can't talk for others. But I personally asked whether they were pure Be or not, and they gave me a straight answer NO! I personally inspected the diaphrams that they provided samples of, and just decided it was not what we were looking for performance/cost basis.

BTW, I wasn't asking you to do it, I was just expressing if the report had more information, we could understand the situation better. Nothing personal.
 
#192
ZilchLab said:


I have no clue what "Brand X" is, but the mechanical structure of 2435HPL is illustrated there and the PWT curves title says 1/3 octave.

You asked for evidence, there it is, and you can easily satisfy yourself as to the validity of that disclosure. I'd guess JBL has millions invested in researching the technology, and they're not particularly well known for stretching the truth in AES convention papers.

They also sell Be supertweeters with domes manufactured via vapor deposition through their Consumer division, model 045Be, and we can pretty much surmise who's making them.....
Click to expand...
Well, only when the difference between the two configuratiuons compared is only the diaphragm, then we can call it a valid comparison between the diaphragm. In compression drivers, the phase plug design and the back chamber could effect the test result significantly.
 
#193
soongsc said:

I personally inspected the diaphrams that they provided samples of, and just decided it was not what we were looking for performance/cost basis.
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I can't get 4" berylliums, but B/W will supposedly be offering them soon. In the meantime, Aquaplas'd titanium in JBL 2452H-SL is serving up some mighty smooth sounds at the moment here.


soongsc said:

Well, only when the difference between the two configuratiuons compared is only the diaphragm, then we can call it a valid comparison between the diaphragm. In compression drivers, the phase plug design and the back chamber could effect the test result significantly.
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Since they also offer them in aluminum, it's a good guess they prototyped titanium, and would be producing that if it performed as well....
 
#194
I¡¯ll say the same thing .:

we¡¯d like to ask you , what is the most important part for the produce a driver / sound box ? is that the performance of sound or each elements proportional at the material ?


¡°These folks tend to hang in the darkness and it's a challenge to get any information from them. ¡±

.If we wanted to cheat or deceive on what we have, It¡¯s unnecessary for us to offer the SGS to our customers. Not as your claimed at above .

,you do not know SONIC¡¯S raw material and production art , how can you say that the diaphragms of SONIC is the fake one ? or eather painted on or vapor deposited ? if it¡¯s painted titanium or anyelse , how come the diaphragms could so brittle and fragile ? you may question the toxicity issue of BE, the pure BE is unstable and toxic of course .but our BE ALLOY is very stable after forming process. During our forming process , the BE will be just like skin removed from diapragms/cones body layer by layers under oxidization effect .

Old words ,i f the performance of 1-2% Be diaphragm is identical to the performance of 100% Be diaphragm or even better, which one you¡¯d like to do it ? or , your behind company could not have the technology to manufacture good performance Be by the proportional of 1-2% that paid you to cast aspersoins on us ? what¡¯s your motivation?

It¡¯s doesn¡¯t matter for any comments to our products from you STEPHEN, one point is that our products is better than you or your behind company could offer..our former customer Usher's speaker system won Golden Ear Award at CES for several consecutive years. Their system is based on our Be Alloy diaphragm. If as you mentioned that the high-purity could performance better then how comes thoese Audio System based on pure "Be" can not win the award?

It¡¯s not a disgrace and shameful behaviour to spread the slander to fellow trader ,but the dirty thoughts started points at your personal/corporate gain .we will not discuss this issue with you any longer ,because there ¡®s no any common with a person one who is insincere and prtentious . A wolf in sheep's clothing
 
#197
Now here comes Steve Mowry again.

Usher says the measured performance is within their standards. But the measured performance of the 9980 Be 28mm tweeter is identical to the Dayton RS28A. This is the Usher with a black annodized aluyminum dome.

Here's brother Zaph. http://www.zaphaudio.com/tidbits/

He says, "Usher 9980 Beryllium Performs just like the current Dayton RS28, complete with dip in the top octave. Even the breakup is at the same frequency. Looks exactly the same except for a mild gray-purple tint to the dome. The distortion profile is a teeny bit cleaner, but it's close enough that it could just be batch differences. Hard to say. This Usher isn't available to DIY'ers and thus the listing on this page. June 2009 update: there's controversy about what constitutes "real" beryllium. You don't have to look too far to find it. Regardless, to date I've seen no real proof that any beryllium usage, either pure or heavily alloyed with other materials, is any better than aluminum or coated fabric. There's certainly a lot more to a tweeter than the chosen diaphragm material.

But that's not beryllium. See how Usher is damaging the industry.

And my comment is that "is impossible". Beryllium just cannot perform exactly like aluminum. However, titanium can, well almost. But the RS28A can bne purchased from Parts Express for just US$44.50 in quantities with free shipping within most of the USA.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-130

Now the performance is very close to the gray dome Usher tweeter used in the Dancer Be et al. loudspeakers. The Dayton RS28A is a great tweeter with a value second to none but the real difference between the RS28A and the Usher 9980 Be is that "Beryllium" is inscribed on the faceplate of the 9980.

Now attack the person as you may, this is just not correct. Sure the Usher product is "good" but it's being misrepresented and when confronted, I get the you can't touch me attitude and I think they called me a transducer god among several other things.

Frankly, at this point I welcome Usher's insults so that the community, the industy and hopewfully the consumer will see what Usher is doing to us.
 
#198
rosa.scottfield said:
I¡¯ll say the same thing .:

we¡¯d like to ask you , what is the most important part for the produce a driver / sound box ? is that the performance of sound or each elements proportional at the material ?
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You are missing the point.

Use jewellery as an analogy: if someone were to sell me a necklace that was 24K gold, it looked and felt like 24K gold, and all my friends commented upon how good it looked on me, and then I found out it was 2% gold and I paid 24K prices for it, I have been mislead and defrauded. No amount of telling me how great I looked in it will replace that.
 
#199
Brett said:
You are missing the point.

Use jewellery as an analogy: if someone were to sell me a necklace that was 24K gold, it looked and felt like 24K gold, and all my friends commented upon how good it looked on me, and then I found out it was 2% gold and I paid 24K prices for it, I have been mislead and defrauded. No amount of telling me how great I looked in it will replace that.
Click to expand...

Yes but someone sent a threating message when they uncovered the scam.

Thank you,

Steve
 
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