try to remember what you talked and thought about this day, or the day before - be sure you would not need any of this - in the desert.
this shades a light to the fact that interaction / communication / language as well as thinking / awareness / consciousness is a multi layered process neither restricted to "spoken words" nor "logic thinking".
Pinkmouse has pin point it already - your / our assumptions / axioms / boundary condition already determine results of investigation...
Michael
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The fact (reprise ...! ) is what Thadman had expressed ...and maybe Byroninlawrence had messed up with his accademical (no offence... 🙂 ) way of thinking...you know...the Pure ,the Primitive and Perfect ...The fact is that when I write some post ,it is quite a challenge:
the subject matter is already vague and confused in my mind ,then I have to do the translation...sort of a Trans-impedance-Resistor 🙂 🙂....and accomodate to what I fell it could be comprehended by others...SUCH A MESS !!!!!
the subject matter is already vague and confused in my mind ,then I have to do the translation...sort of a Trans-impedance-Resistor 🙂 🙂....and accomodate to what I fell it could be comprehended by others...SUCH A MESS !!!!!
Ez van:
You got to think about.
Might guess, what I wanted to say.🙂
Actually, I'm embarrassed, because I do not know to decide which is more important.
I say it, the thought of the most important thing.
But the language is not nothing.
The melody of language here.
The language has a rhythm.
The language is music.
Did you know you are, the fact that the Hungarian language in all forms of versification might be achieved?
Sound and movement
Sound and movement (gesture), that's my answer. Of course, I don't understand the question, but I know that you are talking to each other discussing something 😛
If I live in a desert and I hear a sound from my stomach while at the same time I feel pain, I know that I'm "hungry", I need food. When I use my spear to kill a duck for my breakfast, I hear "qwackk!!!", very similar with my sound when I hurt my finger with hammer. When I hear birds soaring I'm thinking "what the hell is happening to them". Gesture or sound are both applicable for me to build my own language but I think sound will be more effective. So I invent 8 words, my son make it to 16.
Another person in another desert also experience the same thing. And his "language" and mine can be related uniquely one-to-one, because it represents the very basic of human feeling (anger, happiness, love, etc). We are still inventing more... frequency-related sound... oh well
Sound and movement (gesture), that's my answer. Of course, I don't understand the question, but I know that you are talking to each other discussing something 😛
If I live in a desert and I hear a sound from my stomach while at the same time I feel pain, I know that I'm "hungry", I need food. When I use my spear to kill a duck for my breakfast, I hear "qwackk!!!", very similar with my sound when I hurt my finger with hammer. When I hear birds soaring I'm thinking "what the hell is happening to them". Gesture or sound are both applicable for me to build my own language but I think sound will be more effective. So I invent 8 words, my son make it to 16.
Another person in another desert also experience the same thing. And his "language" and mine can be related uniquely one-to-one, because it represents the very basic of human feeling (anger, happiness, love, etc). We are still inventing more... frequency-related sound... oh well
Not necessarily discrediting the research, just stating that the researchers would have to provide some evidence to me that their results exclude such things as cultural, familial, and other non-language environmental causes. And then there is the problem of how their own language-thinking affected the research. That's why I leave that stuff to academia...
It is well known that some languages are better than others for thinking. Ancient Greek grammar is a good example.
I don't believe that the guy on the island develops a language. Thinking is done in symbols; there's symbols for, say, 'water' or 'bird'. He/she would recognise the empty feeling in his/her stomac and try to get food. But to tell someone you feel hungry you need, ehhh, someone to listen to you.
There's even evidence that without fellow human beings your thinking doesn't develop as well as it could, and of course language would be totally absent. But, you can still think in symbols even without language I guess.
In the days of Ceaucescu (sp?) in Romania, orphans were brought up strictly seperated from each other, and never hugged or shown care. When they were discovered, they could not even show emotion, their faces were expressionless whether they were happy or sad. They had command of a language but is was just a means to communicate fcats; they could not 'connect' to anyone.
Bottom line: You need people to become one of them.
jan didden
Correct. He does not. And he may never be able to learn one (at least not well) if he is past about 5 years old.
Some animals think, but few, if any, have a language.
He interprets input by associating them with their relative function. If it's function is still unknown, then either he either fights (explores) or flees, (to explore another day?) I would think if you can not reason by the accumulation of coherent structuring of words, you would have to do so by instinct and counteract the initial instinct by what skill of rationalisation you have required.
"I see up in the tree, a leave about to fall. Should I wait to pick it up, see if it's pretty or? No wait, my tummy....Maybe it taste good...Maybe it's poisenous? Noone have ever eaten it before me, how will I know? Do I dare try?...Give to dog, if dog not die, I not die, I not die, I eat more..tummy happy" 🙂
...or something....
Humans allways think, allthough some to a lesser extent than others 🙂
Which form the infrastructure of the language center takes, is up to the subject, I would think, and it's surroundings...
Observe infants...they utter more and more complex sounds which seem to inherit more and more meaning. How fast they develop that skill, is up to the parents and how greatly they stimulate their child. The infant will evolv nonetheless, however inhibited by a given loss of stimuli.
As would the lone islander...
"I see up in the tree, a leave about to fall. Should I wait to pick it up, see if it's pretty or? No wait, my tummy....Maybe it taste good...Maybe it's poisenous? Noone have ever eaten it before me, how will I know? Do I dare try?...Give to dog, if dog not die, I not die, I not die, I eat more..tummy happy" 🙂
...or something....
Humans allways think, allthough some to a lesser extent than others 🙂
Which form the infrastructure of the language center takes, is up to the subject, I would think, and it's surroundings...
Observe infants...they utter more and more complex sounds which seem to inherit more and more meaning. How fast they develop that skill, is up to the parents and how greatly they stimulate their child. The infant will evolv nonetheless, however inhibited by a given loss of stimuli.
As would the lone islander...
Gyuri,
When you say Hungarian, you're referring to Magyar nyelv?
Is it your understanding that it's a Hunnish language and is somehow related to Finnish?
Somewhere along the line, I seem to remember that the Kazars also settled in the area of Hungary in the 5th or 6th Century and that the first King of Hungary adhered to the Jewish religion.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Manas -Thought
Man -person
Moon - object of thought
Mind -Place of the thoughts
A-cintia -Thougthlessness 😛
Italian is an indo-european tongue.....
Man -person
Moon - object of thought
Mind -Place of the thoughts
A-cintia -Thougthlessness 😛
Italian is an indo-european tongue.....
The Language of Thought
A good source on this topic is Jerry Fodor's book "The Language of Thought". Daniel Dennett also has some good writings on the topic.
A good source on this topic is Jerry Fodor's book "The Language of Thought". Daniel Dennett also has some good writings on the topic.
Human brains are hard wired by evolution for language (language in general, not a particular language); The particular language & mode of expression learned is conditioned by culture.
An interesting scifi book that has language/linguistics as a central theme is "Snowcrash" by Neal Stephenson. Interesting stuff... if it follows his own opinions in the matter, then he thinks... well, better not say, if you want to read the book. GREAT read!
Also: feral children (children who grow up without human interaction) seem to lose the capacity for acquiring language.
Tom.
Also: feral children (children who grow up without human interaction) seem to lose the capacity for acquiring language.
Tom.
"relationship between language and thought"
What kind of language - analytical or metaphorical?
What kind of thought - narrowly goal oriented or big picture?
Thought and language merge and separate depending on what we're doing. Our lives can at various times have a large linguistic component or very large physical or imagistic components. Sometimes logical operations seem the exclusive domain of our lives and sometimes throwing a ball, or jumping out of the way of a car, or singing, is all we're doing.
It's all the domain of thought but it's not all linguistic. Language, even poetic, tends to focus many thoughts and feelings, "to a point", as it were, but it doesn't do it exclusively.
The best overview of this I have seen is by Iain McGilchrist, The Master and His Emissary, The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World, Yale UP. It's a peculiar title and I'm not sure I agree with the second part of the book, but he first part is a masterpiece, and anyway, the book is worth buying for the notes and bibliography.
He's got a website: Iain McGilchrist, author of The Master and his Emissary
To answer the original post, competent thought and language use seems to require growing in a social milieu. Children that grow in isolation from society tend not to function well as adults - they have various deficits.
What kind of language - analytical or metaphorical?
What kind of thought - narrowly goal oriented or big picture?
Thought and language merge and separate depending on what we're doing. Our lives can at various times have a large linguistic component or very large physical or imagistic components. Sometimes logical operations seem the exclusive domain of our lives and sometimes throwing a ball, or jumping out of the way of a car, or singing, is all we're doing.
It's all the domain of thought but it's not all linguistic. Language, even poetic, tends to focus many thoughts and feelings, "to a point", as it were, but it doesn't do it exclusively.
The best overview of this I have seen is by Iain McGilchrist, The Master and His Emissary, The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World, Yale UP. It's a peculiar title and I'm not sure I agree with the second part of the book, but he first part is a masterpiece, and anyway, the book is worth buying for the notes and bibliography.
He's got a website: Iain McGilchrist, author of The Master and his Emissary
To answer the original post, competent thought and language use seems to require growing in a social milieu. Children that grow in isolation from society tend not to function well as adults - they have various deficits.
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