Doubtful
Dude, he is from China, you know the land of cheap labor! I bet at wholesale prices, each board does not cost him more than $1. And if the manufacturer is from Taiwan, even less.
Also, what satisfaction do you get of calling a project DIY if you will buy a PCB and solder components onto it
🙄
That sounds more like PITY (Put It Together Yourself).😀
Anyhow, over 170 posts and the person this post is aimed to, digi01, is yet to respond.
Maybe someone can lure him in by offering some fresh new ideas! 😉
Dude, he is from China, you know the land of cheap labor! I bet at wholesale prices, each board does not cost him more than $1. And if the manufacturer is from Taiwan, even less.
Also, what satisfaction do you get of calling a project DIY if you will buy a PCB and solder components onto it
🙄
That sounds more like PITY (Put It Together Yourself).😀
Anyhow, over 170 posts and the person this post is aimed to, digi01, is yet to respond.
Maybe someone can lure him in by offering some fresh new ideas! 😉
motherone said:
This is no use.
A guy takes the efford to build, test, listen to a (not revolutionary, of course) regulated LM338 PSU with a GC.
He makes a schematic and puts it on his site.
It starts generating interest and people start building it.
Yes, if it wasn't Pedja you probably would not be buying any regulator boards, or even using them.😡
People who contribute with ideas here will slowly run away (as many went) and this site will become something like Velleman's catalogue.
Stopped in time.
Have fun.
The rest of your post is your opinion and as such fine with me (it is not that I couldn't say much about it, especially where you deal with the things none claimed, but this is apparently constant so I must give up), but I'd like to note that I don't think these persons are doing the same things.motherone said:
Pedja
till said:
Taken over seems like a strong term. It looked like anyone can pursue any discussion that is related to DIY (except for Texas type offenses etc.)
There are a set of experienced folks of course and perhaps they constituted a higher percentage of the posts at one time. But the occurrence of a large number of newbie or semi-experienced is a very good thing. Some will build an amp and enjoy it for many years but move on and try their hand at something else. That is certainly not a bad thing.
But some will do another amp and another, try some different values, try a new layout etc. and be the "old hands" down the road.
So expanded interest is a good thing as far as I can tell.
Does make the % of posts about "new design or part value frontiers" perhaps lower % of the total but that does not mean there are any less of the design frontier threads than otherwise.
I am sure you can find interesting things to discuss even if others are discussing in another thread where to source a pretty standard part to populate a PCB etc.
Re: Doubtful
That is like asking what satisfaction you get from calling a project DIY if you don't wind your own transformer, cast your own knobs, mine your own ore etc. Perhaps you do all those things.
I have yet to see a DIY that does not have parts in it that are made by someone else. Heck this whole forum is about a chip that implements a good deal of circuit layout. Perhaps you do not use amp chips.
There is plenty of DIY satifaction to be found in all the hundreds of steps one must go through to produce a nice finished amp from PCBs and those DIYers should be plenty proud of their work.
I do not find the distain to be particularly logical or useful.
D_GR8_1 said:
That is like asking what satisfaction you get from calling a project DIY if you don't wind your own transformer, cast your own knobs, mine your own ore etc. Perhaps you do all those things.
I have yet to see a DIY that does not have parts in it that are made by someone else. Heck this whole forum is about a chip that implements a good deal of circuit layout. Perhaps you do not use amp chips.
There is plenty of DIY satifaction to be found in all the hundreds of steps one must go through to produce a nice finished amp from PCBs and those DIYers should be plenty proud of their work.
I do not find the distain to be particularly logical or useful.
moving_electron said:
Yes, but look what happens when I open a thread to discuss something interesting:
The thread starts here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43423&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
Then comes Upupa Epops, seams to follow me lately, with a lot of beauties, check it out:
"Damping factor":
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=499025#post499025
Huh? Was I talking about this?😕
Stick around, there's more.
"My PCB has that":
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=500131#post500131
Note: he still didn't knew what we were talking about...
And not yet, no idea...:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=500145#post500145
And then he discovers what we are talking about:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=500171#post500171
His advice is big caps on-board with shorter traces, what everybody does AND IT DOESN'T SOUND GOOD AT ALL, what a beauty!
I've been there, done that, but this guy always thinks he's talking with amateurs.
And then this "advice", on another thread. His ideas sound bad, but he is very "professional".
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=518163#post518163
Is this mad or what?
carlosfm said:
Yes, if it wasn't Pedja you probably would not be buying any regulator boards, or even using them.😡
People who contribute with ideas here will slowly run away (as many went) and this site will become something like Velleman's catalogue.
I understand the concern if someone was selling a design or boards on there sight or was intending to build boards. I can also see why someone would want acknowledgement. I can see the concern for amount of profit in a group buy. A combination of the above came out in this thread.
However, I cannot see why someone would go away if their idea is widely used via group PCB or kit buys per se.
I cannot see where in general an idea contributor will say. "Hey people actually like my ideas and are using them. Wow, actually quite a lot are using it (in this small universe). I am upset, I would have expected it to be unpopular and ignored. I guess I will go away."
Doesn't sound too logical.
carlosfm said:
Of course you are going to get counter opinions. Some more well formed than others. Can be irritating, but seems "par for the course".
Typically the more "new" an idea is and the more against the standard notions, the more it has to go through disbelief and counter arguments. Pretty common in science.
The best we can do is keep things as civil as possible, realize it is not a personal thing, and keep on exploring the ideas and educating. What I observed was that along the way you picked up some early adopters that also contributed their findings and comments and a new direction formed for a lot of people.
Just and aspect of human nature, discussions, and idea advancement.
Re: Doubtful
Well if you are able to get them at that price, layout a generic regulated PSU board, fund and take the risk on prototypes, build and maintain a wiki page, coordinate the logistics of the orders, get the deliveries all properly addressed and shipped, answer followup questions and then offer them for $1 a board to the members here - I think we would all be indebted to you.
Until then we will all have to suffer through with the nicely made, proofed out $4 boards that digi01 has made available.
I am looking forward to those $1 boards. Let us know when your group buy will be available.
D_GR8_1 said:
Well if you are able to get them at that price, layout a generic regulated PSU board, fund and take the risk on prototypes, build and maintain a wiki page, coordinate the logistics of the orders, get the deliveries all properly addressed and shipped, answer followup questions and then offer them for $1 a board to the members here - I think we would all be indebted to you.
Until then we will all have to suffer through with the nicely made, proofed out $4 boards that digi01 has made available.
I am looking forward to those $1 boards. Let us know when your group buy will be available.
Pedja said:
Here it is:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...8636&perpage=10&highlight=digi01&pagenumber=1
I had the idea you participated in this thread too.
I did not say much, as he had already another thread with the LM3886, and I figured out his intentions.
He knew my schematic and it says: "Not for use in commercial applications, only for DIY".
He also knew perfectly you made the original schematic.
An e-mail would be the minimum to ask for.
carlosfm said:
I'm confused as to why you bring up your schematic.
You stated a few pages back in this thread that we should not get your schematic in the middle of this. The digi01 PSU board nor the Amp board implement your schematic particularly. They can be tweaked around, modded etc. to use your recommended values (same for a lot of values) but it is not layed out to implement your schematic values. Same for the amp board. I listed some particularly obvious examples.
Back to your other points though........
Dude, you are American, and as such I thought you would understand why all your companies have their manufacturing plants in ASIA, Taiwan & China in particular. CAUSE IT IS CHEAP!!!!
I dont know whether you are naive or what? How much does $1 translate into Chinese money? How much more can you buy with $1 in China than in US.
Have you ordered any samples lately? Where do they get shipped from? HONG KONG? SINGAPORE?
Wake up and smell the coffee my friend, it is called 3rd world exploitation.
Well you wont get them from me, I live in Australia, one of the most expensive countries to live in, maybe if I was in China, then sure, why not!
D_GR8_1 said:
I understand all the things you stated in your post. My current job is personally at risk of moving to somewhere else in the world.
Still I think we will have to shift to another forum entirely to appropriately discuss who benefits from global shifts, why China's productivity increases over time benefit the worlds economies in general, who is adversely affected in particular cases, why my kids will have a better standard of living, why China will have to remove the peg to the dollar etc.
In short a discussion of globilization, productivity, currency policy and macroeconomics doesn't make a lot of sense in this thread. You can start one in "Off topic" and I will join in some. I know the topic pretty well and can argue all sides if need be.
D_GR8_1 said:
A recent bit on NPR could lead one to believe that Americans buying at WalMart was a significant driver of this trend.
dave
Re: Doubtful
items with the stamp `made in china' are pretty cheap here in India. most computer hardware are `made in taiwan'. `cheap labor' is very much available here too. it is pathetic....a matter of concern....
D_GR8_1 said:
items with the stamp `made in china' are pretty cheap here in India. most computer hardware are `made in taiwan'. `cheap labor' is very much available here too. it is pathetic....a matter of concern....
Pedja, maybe this long thread has to do with that I and others don't understand everything. I have seen the regulator design on your homepage and I can't figure out if you have made any boards or not. I can't definitely don't see if you sell any. I can also see the design is a dual supply and digi's is a single one. To forbid digi to use a single regulator is a bit heavy I think especailly after you have helped him. This is starting to sound like someone (you know who) who don't like to give free consulting.
If you Pedja has something more original or different than digi's solution maybe you should arrange a group buy. I think digi's first intention wasn't 400 pcb's but he made a pcb that people here liked. I'm convinced that you Pedja also are able to create something successful so I suggest that you move forward... and maybe a bit faster. BrianGT/Peter Daniel have sold pretty many pcb's and digi also and those products are more or less the same, the theme at least and there are room for more. You can also get your regulator sold but you have to do it first, not only talk about it.
I don't know what the real isssue is, someone mention an idea, the community likes it, someone else make sure that the community gets pcb's.
Did you want to manucfature pcb? Did you want this extra pizza money? Did you want to have all the credit? What did you want really?
If you Pedja has something more original or different than digi's solution maybe you should arrange a group buy. I think digi's first intention wasn't 400 pcb's but he made a pcb that people here liked. I'm convinced that you Pedja also are able to create something successful so I suggest that you move forward... and maybe a bit faster. BrianGT/Peter Daniel have sold pretty many pcb's and digi also and those products are more or less the same, the theme at least and there are room for more. You can also get your regulator sold but you have to do it first, not only talk about it.
I don't know what the real isssue is, someone mention an idea, the community likes it, someone else make sure that the community gets pcb's.
Did you want to manucfature pcb? Did you want this extra pizza money? Did you want to have all the credit? What did you want really?
carlosfm said:
The original design is in the LM138/338 Ap note. Pedga's, Carlos' and Digi's design all differ in the details.
dave
Re: Re: Doubtful
Again, the effects of globalization, capitalism etc. discussion should probably move to "off topic".
Roushon said:
Again, the effects of globalization, capitalism etc. discussion should probably move to "off topic".
I guess that the only reason I have not bought any PCBs offered on this forum is that none fit my current project, slow though it is. Maybe a buffered chip amp PCB might tempt me -- since my pride in my own DIY effort doesn't disguise the fact that the results look like crepe... 🙄 😀 I would post pics, except they would put most of you off your meals and disturb your sleep for weeks!
I am all for the real DIY spirit here on the forum, and delight in reading the efforts of the likes of PD and Carlos, different though their approaches seem to me. Peter and Brian have produced PCBs which are very popular, and as I said, those boards do not meet the needs of my imagination at present. (Now if Carlosfm should produce boards I may well be interested!)
It is clear that Digi enjoys designing and producing PCBs. His effort has captured the imagination of other DIYers who must have similar clear vision as I do (see above ).
So it seems to me that Digi happens to be meeting the needs of a segment of this DIY community, many who may be happy soldering capacitors and resistors onto a board. All power to them. The vast majority of us use circuits that are not original to us, so why not a circuit board also? Not many of us are innovators.
The only questions (for there are a multitude of answers) are perhaps to be addressed on 2 levels:
a) Personal: Credit given to whom credit is due, for any help and ideas used. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall Digi acknowledging and thanking those who gave help.)
b) Community: It has to be decided by the moderators if Digi's activities are too commercial for a non-profit DIY group.
Forgive this interuption: I know I am simply regurgitating ideas that have already been partly digested on this thread and other places.
I am not the one to decide, and I'm not interested in argument. Just tossing in my ha'penny.
🙂
I am all for the real DIY spirit here on the forum, and delight in reading the efforts of the likes of PD and Carlos, different though their approaches seem to me. Peter and Brian have produced PCBs which are very popular, and as I said, those boards do not meet the needs of my imagination at present. (Now if Carlosfm should produce boards I may well be interested!)
It is clear that Digi enjoys designing and producing PCBs. His effort has captured the imagination of other DIYers who must have similar clear vision as I do (see above
).So it seems to me that Digi happens to be meeting the needs of a segment of this DIY community, many who may be happy soldering capacitors and resistors onto a board. All power to them. The vast majority of us use circuits that are not original to us, so why not a circuit board also? Not many of us are innovators.
The only questions (for there are a multitude of answers) are perhaps to be addressed on 2 levels:
a) Personal: Credit given to whom credit is due, for any help and ideas used. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall Digi acknowledging and thanking those who gave help.)
b) Community: It has to be decided by the moderators if Digi's activities are too commercial for a non-profit DIY group.
Forgive this interuption: I know I am simply regurgitating ideas that have already been partly digested on this thread and other places.
I am not the one to decide, and I'm not interested in argument. Just tossing in my ha'penny.
🙂
Hi. I'd like to respond to a few of SY's points.
Many of, you and I included, live in a place with very high cost of living, but many others here don't. What you are dismissing as pizza money might have significance to others.
As others have pointed out, this is not necessarily true. In the US (and probably most other places) the default is to assign the copyright to the original author. I have seen some commerical fourms with a policy that anything posted is property of the owners of the forum. Other forums explicitly state that posters retain ownership of all thier posts. Slashdot is like that, and when one of their editors published a book that contained excerpts from various posts he contacted each poster and got permission to use their words.
Anyways, the issues of IP is not germane to this discussion. Nobody has accused anyone of violating any laws. This is a matter of the social conventions of this community. I think we should take a tip from the academic community and be very careful to cite our sources. The academic community also depends on the free exchange of ideas which aren't necessarily protected by law, and their conventions encourage it. Note that citing the source is very different than citing the original inventor. The point is to acknowlage the one that brought the idea into the community.
Small Discaimer: I am not involved in the chip amp forum, but I think this is a very interesting thread.
Many of, you and I included, live in a place with very high cost of living, but many others here don't. What you are dismissing as pizza money might have significance to others.
As others have pointed out, this is not necessarily true. In the US (and probably most other places) the default is to assign the copyright to the original author. I have seen some commerical fourms with a policy that anything posted is property of the owners of the forum. Other forums explicitly state that posters retain ownership of all thier posts. Slashdot is like that, and when one of their editors published a book that contained excerpts from various posts he contacted each poster and got permission to use their words.
Anyways, the issues of IP is not germane to this discussion. Nobody has accused anyone of violating any laws. This is a matter of the social conventions of this community. I think we should take a tip from the academic community and be very careful to cite our sources. The academic community also depends on the free exchange of ideas which aren't necessarily protected by law, and their conventions encourage it. Note that citing the source is very different than citing the original inventor. The point is to acknowlage the one that brought the idea into the community.
Small Discaimer: I am not involved in the chip amp forum, but I think this is a very interesting thread.
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