Yes, that is the question…
I’d use this chance to remind moderators that I am still waiting for the answer…
I’d use this chance to remind moderators that I am still waiting for the answer…
Well, then… here it goes publicly.
I am not sure if everybody here really are aware, but I know that all anyway should be aware of the fact that some people have been spending some time and good will to share their findings posting them here or to their own sites. The regulated supply for GC is one of such cases. Plenty of info is provided along the road and the project became popular thus having certain commercial weight. It was interesting to look the efforts by a few to cash in this in the meantime, now this case has gone farthest… I am looking at this and I see more than 200 sold pieces of the regulator board in the first, and the second round in progress (it seems like there will be more of them “on the demand of the customers” …). What I can not see anywhere is any credit given to anyone who started this GC route. And none of us, at least none of those I’ve talked with, was asked if is agreed with this or not. I am sorry to be this rude, but what I am trying to say is: digi01 could be happy to sell one board on his own. All the rest he is selling is the result of the other’s work. This has started like a selling of 20 pieces of surplus board. For most of us who put work to promote this approach, that may be still tolerable, but 250+ till now, without end in sight, no, that is not, no way.
I’ve posted complaint to the moderators seven days ago but up to now I haven’t received the answer. Probably because all this was by huge part made by one moderator, with apparent surplus of generosity with other’s work (see post #2 of this thread). Per-Anders should put his own work to make something sonically successful, to provide tips, warns for the problems and to make it widely accepted and commercially weighty and then he can give that to anyone he wants to give.
Since I don’t see the point of waiting for the answer of the moderators anymore, I will start new thread on the topic, probably in the Chip Amps Forum, to hear what fellow members think about this. If they say I am not right I’ll respect it and will withdraw, and of course won’t post much anymore, because that would be pointless for me. In fact, the things that happened till now are for me already enough to lessen the things I am posting. At the other hand, if members give the right to me, someone(s) made huge mistake and I think we need appropriate action.
Pedja
EDIT: Here is the thread I've started:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46169
I am not sure if everybody here really are aware, but I know that all anyway should be aware of the fact that some people have been spending some time and good will to share their findings posting them here or to their own sites. The regulated supply for GC is one of such cases. Plenty of info is provided along the road and the project became popular thus having certain commercial weight. It was interesting to look the efforts by a few to cash in this in the meantime, now this case has gone farthest… I am looking at this and I see more than 200 sold pieces of the regulator board in the first, and the second round in progress (it seems like there will be more of them “on the demand of the customers” …). What I can not see anywhere is any credit given to anyone who started this GC route. And none of us, at least none of those I’ve talked with, was asked if is agreed with this or not. I am sorry to be this rude, but what I am trying to say is: digi01 could be happy to sell one board on his own. All the rest he is selling is the result of the other’s work. This has started like a selling of 20 pieces of surplus board. For most of us who put work to promote this approach, that may be still tolerable, but 250+ till now, without end in sight, no, that is not, no way.
I’ve posted complaint to the moderators seven days ago but up to now I haven’t received the answer. Probably because all this was by huge part made by one moderator, with apparent surplus of generosity with other’s work (see post #2 of this thread). Per-Anders should put his own work to make something sonically successful, to provide tips, warns for the problems and to make it widely accepted and commercially weighty and then he can give that to anyone he wants to give.
Since I don’t see the point of waiting for the answer of the moderators anymore, I will start new thread on the topic, probably in the Chip Amps Forum, to hear what fellow members think about this. If they say I am not right I’ll respect it and will withdraw, and of course won’t post much anymore, because that would be pointless for me. In fact, the things that happened till now are for me already enough to lessen the things I am posting. At the other hand, if members give the right to me, someone(s) made huge mistake and I think we need appropriate action.
Pedja
EDIT: Here is the thread I've started:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46169
Here is the thread where the thing has started:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41746
Here is the corresponding Wiki page:
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=3886igc
Here is what I think about that:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=516494#post516494
What do you think? Do we have here one guys providing the info, circuits, tips, warnings about pitfalls and giving layout advices, and others guys taking that to earn something in front of the nose of the firsts?
Pedja
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41746
Here is the corresponding Wiki page:
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=3886igc
Here is what I think about that:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=516494#post516494
What do you think? Do we have here one guys providing the info, circuits, tips, warnings about pitfalls and giving layout advices, and others guys taking that to earn something in front of the nose of the firsts?
Pedja
Pedja, you are absolutely right.
The efford you made long ago and posted on your site is being ripped and commercialized here without people even asking your permission.
That is not what I call living in community, that is not what I call living by the laws.
I've noticed long ago that we are helping some members who open threads asking help to make a better layout for an LM3886 board, buffer, or regulator board (or whatever), just to see some time later those boards commercialized.
These attitutes are, for me, clearly outside the DIY spirit.
The efford you made long ago and posted on your site is being ripped and commercialized here without people even asking your permission.
That is not what I call living in community, that is not what I call living by the laws.
I've noticed long ago that we are helping some members who open threads asking help to make a better layout for an LM3886 board, buffer, or regulator board (or whatever), just to see some time later those boards commercialized.
These attitutes are, for me, clearly outside the DIY spirit.
Maybe I am missing something but I dont understand the problem here. What is commercialized about what digi is doing?
He is not a company, he is selling to DIYers. I believe he is not profitting from this. If he only had 10 people interested in the PCBs would it be different?
The fact that it is so popular I think is good for the community, it gives many people the opportunity to easily have a regulated equipment. What if Pedja was the one getting the PCBs produced? or what if he had a big "respect to xxx, xxx and xxx for sharing the initial work way back" banner at the beginning of his thread?
And what about people who are from this community who cant make there own PCBs or dont want to "get their hands that dirty" so to speak?
He is not a company, he is selling to DIYers. I believe he is not profitting from this. If he only had 10 people interested in the PCBs would it be different?
The fact that it is so popular I think is good for the community, it gives many people the opportunity to easily have a regulated equipment. What if Pedja was the one getting the PCBs produced? or what if he had a big "respect to xxx, xxx and xxx for sharing the initial work way back" banner at the beginning of his thread?
And what about people who are from this community who cant make there own PCBs or dont want to "get their hands that dirty" so to speak?
Carlos,
You may count yourself also as being ripped off, as well as the people like NealG, Troels, Nick… (there are more) may, all those who’ve been involved in this/such supply in a way they’ve experimented and reported that and put the info online. I should recall also that I wasn’t the first who put online such supply for the power amp, Class A amplifier site has something similar before (differences mainly due to the differences between the amps themselves). But there was a work to do until this gadget started to be considered as an improvement, and it was the long way until the situation we have now. It is done by some people and I bet none of them is happy because of this.
Pedja
You may count yourself also as being ripped off, as well as the people like NealG, Troels, Nick… (there are more) may, all those who’ve been involved in this/such supply in a way they’ve experimented and reported that and put the info online. I should recall also that I wasn’t the first who put online such supply for the power amp, Class A amplifier site has something similar before (differences mainly due to the differences between the amps themselves). But there was a work to do until this gadget started to be considered as an improvement, and it was the long way until the situation we have now. It is done by some people and I bet none of them is happy because of this.
Pedja
Re: Well, then… here it goes publicly.
I'll hope you will get an answer but for your remark above, everything I do is free for non-commercial use except for the gerber files. I think I have said that plenty of times now... and yes I have been copied.Pedja said:
I'm not sure what it is that your finding hard to accept the acknowledgement of the input given by yourself as well as Carlos Filipe whom as I read has given credit where credit is due or that there was interest in having board's made to adapt for usage with gainclones as well as other project's needing a simple regulated supply.I personally would have like to see these one's be made available for usage with the gainclone's http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=415806#post415806
There seems to be a lot of interest in reguled board's it just seems that Digi was the only one that made them readably available at what I percieve a resonable price wheather He's making commercial products out of them to sell for profit would be a question for Digi at which point I could see a more definite reason to take issue if the design is a exacting clone of someone's hard work and premission is not given for it to used as anyone please's in the public domain .
There seems to be a lot of interest in reguled board's it just seems that Digi was the only one that made them readably available at what I percieve a resonable price wheather He's making commercial products out of them to sell for profit would be a question for Digi at which point I could see a more definite reason to take issue if the design is a exacting clone of someone's hard work and premission is not given for it to used as anyone please's in the public domain .
I think commercialism and the development from group - buy for shared interests towards group buy = using this board as a free marketing platform are the worst problems of diyaudio. com.
But as the moderators have the power, and at least one moderator is the king of profit - making groupbuys, the fight against this bad attidudes is lost...
The problem is not if anyone uses anotherones circuit - thats ok for diy. The problem is diyaudio.com is not really about diy audio anymore, but about selling and buying. We are not all diyers, we are now divided into sellers and buyers.
But as the moderators have the power, and at least one moderator is the king of profit - making groupbuys, the fight against this bad attidudes is lost...
The problem is not if anyone uses anotherones circuit - thats ok for diy. The problem is diyaudio.com is not really about diy audio anymore, but about selling and buying. We are not all diyers, we are now divided into sellers and buyers.
peranders said:
What I was about is: you gave the admission for, and even worse, you’ve recommended the usage of the other’s work for the commercial or half-commercial but some kind of commercial purpose anyway.
Pedja
maxw said:
So...
You work hard, try it, listen, report, post schematics.
Someone else sells it, without a single e-mail asking for permission or whatever.
Is this ok?
Anarchy?
Pedja said:
Absolutely.
OPA627 biased to class-A, 2R7+100nf snubber (or call it zobel if you want), high capacitance PSU with snubber, etc.
All this I didn't invent, it's not my original creation, but it's an implementation, it's work, it's many hours lost to get to the right values, and reporting that it's an improvement to the bare GC.
till said:
Very well said indeed.
I was very criticized some 6~7 months ago when I said something like this.
Let's assume he is not. So, why does he do that?maxw said:
Yes, very different.
Once more, this stuff did not come alone. Two years ago this was only the marginal topic.
Pedja
till: I believe that this issue has been covered many many times before, and also that this problem (that i agree 100% with you can be) is neither more or less significant now than it has been in the past
If you take a look on the front page of the forum, left upper corner you will find already the first advertisement for a commercial american outlet of audio kits. Disguised as a normal thread group. This would be the bigger problem compared to the socalled 'group buy providers'. So the problem is not new, it has been there all along, and i wonder why the administrators of this site allow that link. (A question).
Apart from that i think diyaudio.com is amusing and has a lot of good and real discussions about audio subjects, - why i visit here quite often.
I think an important way of limiting commercial abuse of the forum (can probably never be stopped all together) is playing openly and being honest about commercial interests, by for instance telling people openly if you are working in an audio company, (like i do below). Then i think people have a good chance to filter out the commercial content of a post.
Finally i think the moderators are very good at removing directly advertising posts in here. IMHO there is no big problem.
If you take a look on the front page of the forum, left upper corner you will find already the first advertisement for a commercial american outlet of audio kits. Disguised as a normal thread group. This would be the bigger problem compared to the socalled 'group buy providers'. So the problem is not new, it has been there all along, and i wonder why the administrators of this site allow that link. (A question).
Apart from that i think diyaudio.com is amusing and has a lot of good and real discussions about audio subjects, - why i visit here quite often.
I think an important way of limiting commercial abuse of the forum (can probably never be stopped all together) is playing openly and being honest about commercial interests, by for instance telling people openly if you are working in an audio company, (like i do below). Then i think people have a good chance to filter out the commercial content of a post.
Finally i think the moderators are very good at removing directly advertising posts in here. IMHO there is no big problem.
till said:
I still dont get this, maybe there is some history I dont know of as I have not been here long??........but......marketing of what? "marketing" implies there is money to be made but if we assume Digi is not making any money until we here otherwise from him, then I dont get it
The reasearch and developement is online thanks to a few members like pedja etc - thats great and they deserve thanks and respect which they recieve. We as a community like what these few have discovered so all we need is a PCB. We could make the PCBs our selves or we could share the costs and get them made properly - no difference!!
I think in this situation you have to forget about the 200x PCBs because the number should not make a difference, we are talking about the concept.
I have read through the thread fast and from what I can see you, carlosfm, Fred, and some more have given hints in a normal manner, hardly to be regarded as copyright Pedja. Stabilized PS had even the good old Quads in the stone age so the idea isn't particulary new.
What I wonder is, does it matter who makes the boards if it's done non-commercially? Do you have boards yourself which you now can't sell because the market is killed?
What I wonder is, does it matter who makes the boards if it's done non-commercially? Do you have boards yourself which you now can't sell because the market is killed?
maxw: I am inclined to agree with you.
As i interpret your words, you say that Pedja can only have one reason to complain about Digi, and that is if he had intensions to sell the board himself, and thereby himself abuse the forum for commercial interests. But Digi beat him to it. Right?
As i interpret your words, you say that Pedja can only have one reason to complain about Digi, and that is if he had intensions to sell the board himself, and thereby himself abuse the forum for commercial interests. But Digi beat him to it. Right?
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