dopamine and music
Dopamine levels and equipment appreciation... interesting theory. Should be easy enough to test. Perhaps judicious use of methylphenidate or another agonist could be performed in a controlled study of audiofools to determine if the "new and uniqueness" response can be "turned on" and/or perhaps "turned off" with say an SSRI as an inverse? Prozac anyone?
Know anybody with ADHD? You'd need musicians and "golden ears" as well as a few EE's...😉
John L.
Dopamine levels and equipment appreciation... interesting theory. Should be easy enough to test. Perhaps judicious use of methylphenidate or another agonist could be performed in a controlled study of audiofools to determine if the "new and uniqueness" response can be "turned on" and/or perhaps "turned off" with say an SSRI as an inverse? Prozac anyone?
Know anybody with ADHD? You'd need musicians and "golden ears" as well as a few EE's...😉
John L.
gainphile said:I don't want to get this thread out of topic as it seems OB users feel very strongly about their system2.
Yes, when did the title of this thread change from "the problem with hi fidelity" to "yet another open baffle discussion?"
Re: Re: Nirvana or not
well.. you sort of invited it... but I'll refrain henceforth... I still like my system, though... dopamine or not
😀
John L.
Patrick Bateman said:
well.. you sort of invited it... but I'll refrain henceforth... I still like my system, though... dopamine or not
😀
John L.
Patrick Bateman said:
With all due respect, these "I was just reflecting on ..." threads really beg for digression. I mean, we'd all like to be the originator of another 3258 post, 375094 view thread, but how can that happen without flights of fancy/mental masturbation of one degree or another? 🙂
Patrick
Sorry if things seem to got a bit off track but....
The question was basically what has changed our perception of hi fi and got folk of the merry go round so to speak. I feel that for a lot of folk it is literally the impact of that first listening to OBs and that is what has been reflected here. Certainly in my case nothing came close for audio concept adjustment...period!
The problem with hi fidelity is the thing that lies at the end of the chain, ie the speakers: OBs seem to come closer than anything else overall to resolving the issue at a generally pretty low price.
I suppose the other weak link is the source and that also has an answer in my mind Hi bit/hi res files on a PC taken from LPs and cleaned up and then EQ'd to suit your room etc....but that is a whole other thread of course.
All the other bits between the source and the speakers are to a great degree really just trying to compensate for the inadequacies of the source and speakers themselves. Different cables, different amps, different DACs etc all have their own sonic signature but overall the source and the speakers impose the limits. When we adhere to that concept then our approach to system building and synergy changes and to a degree "the throw more money at it to fix it" concept goes out the window.
Sorry if things seem to got a bit off track but....
The question was basically what has changed our perception of hi fi and got folk of the merry go round so to speak. I feel that for a lot of folk it is literally the impact of that first listening to OBs and that is what has been reflected here. Certainly in my case nothing came close for audio concept adjustment...period!
The problem with hi fidelity is the thing that lies at the end of the chain, ie the speakers: OBs seem to come closer than anything else overall to resolving the issue at a generally pretty low price.
I suppose the other weak link is the source and that also has an answer in my mind Hi bit/hi res files on a PC taken from LPs and cleaned up and then EQ'd to suit your room etc....but that is a whole other thread of course.
All the other bits between the source and the speakers are to a great degree really just trying to compensate for the inadequacies of the source and speakers themselves. Different cables, different amps, different DACs etc all have their own sonic signature but overall the source and the speakers impose the limits. When we adhere to that concept then our approach to system building and synergy changes and to a degree "the throw more money at it to fix it" concept goes out the window.
I have always enjoyed music, and always been interested in audio equipment. I have a relatively modest system, although I'm slowly building it out.
My real epiphany occurred past the age of forty, when I began the piano lessons I had always wanted. I'm not any good, but I have found that nothing focuses my listening like daily practice. I have become simultaneously both more and less picky about sound. I've become really picky and less satisfied with my own piano, which is a good one, but far less picky about electronic sources, maybe because they sound so unlike the real thing, I suspend my pickiness, and just listen to the music.
Another thing is that I now completely discount any audiophile that talks about PRAT. Now that I have to count time myself because my playing depends on it, I have a completely different view. If the musician is good, the recording has to be really sh***y for me not to enjoy. Of course, a great recording is even better, but I don't need it, I just want it.
John
My real epiphany occurred past the age of forty, when I began the piano lessons I had always wanted. I'm not any good, but I have found that nothing focuses my listening like daily practice. I have become simultaneously both more and less picky about sound. I've become really picky and less satisfied with my own piano, which is a good one, but far less picky about electronic sources, maybe because they sound so unlike the real thing, I suspend my pickiness, and just listen to the music.
Another thing is that I now completely discount any audiophile that talks about PRAT. Now that I have to count time myself because my playing depends on it, I have a completely different view. If the musician is good, the recording has to be really sh***y for me not to enjoy. Of course, a great recording is even better, but I don't need it, I just want it.
John
This also is a "Problem With Hi Fidelity", changing all the time, but getting no where most of the time.😀Patrick Bateman said:
Also a problem with audio is whenever we hear people talk about comments or listening impressions from others, most do not care to provide music source, description in words vary, but may mean the same thing or different depending on each individuals past experience, lack of standard evaluation music source, etc.. What this leads to is when people express their comments from their point of view, the readers tend to interprete what is said based on readers own past experience. This results in massive misunderstanding.
Hi Brett
I am certainly not saying it is universal (OBs) there are bound to be many approaches that work but I can say that in my experience and that of many others OB do seem to come closer to the heart of the live musical performance.
I can also say that great many folk have auditioned my DIY system and the standard comments are always along the lines of "it just sounds so real" Since I am not speaker design genius at all, the responses must have more than a bit to do with the the concept itself.
Granted though badly implemented the results are probably woeful.
Anyhow I don't think anyone here is trying to convince anyone else of what they should be doing or what is best or worst, simply we are discussing what our experiences have been and this may prove to be helpful to others or not.
Overall one of the hardest things to get down to is actually listening to the music, we do tend to get over concerned with the little stuff, always listening for problems rather than notes. It can be mighty hard to just chill out.
Funnily enough a lot of musicians I know (3 of them very talented) reckon they don't care much at all about what they are listening on and except for one (who is loaded so cost is a non issue) they have had very basic, or mediocre systems.
Food for thought...
I am certainly not saying it is universal (OBs) there are bound to be many approaches that work but I can say that in my experience and that of many others OB do seem to come closer to the heart of the live musical performance.
I can also say that great many folk have auditioned my DIY system and the standard comments are always along the lines of "it just sounds so real" Since I am not speaker design genius at all, the responses must have more than a bit to do with the the concept itself.
Granted though badly implemented the results are probably woeful.
Anyhow I don't think anyone here is trying to convince anyone else of what they should be doing or what is best or worst, simply we are discussing what our experiences have been and this may prove to be helpful to others or not.
Overall one of the hardest things to get down to is actually listening to the music, we do tend to get over concerned with the little stuff, always listening for problems rather than notes. It can be mighty hard to just chill out.
Funnily enough a lot of musicians I know (3 of them very talented) reckon they don't care much at all about what they are listening on and except for one (who is loaded so cost is a non issue) they have had very basic, or mediocre systems.
Food for thought...
Zero One said:
Funny you should say that.. Last week I had a guy from Melbourne at my place, just to listen to speakers.
We listened to a several speakers, then went to listen to Gumby.
After a couple of toons, he realised that he was listening TO THE MUSIC, not the speakers.
The speakers were just the delivery tool, the music became what was important.
This is how it should be 😎
"Funnily enough a lot of musicians I know (3 of them very talented) reckon they don't care much at all about what they are listening on and except for one (who is loaded so cost is a non issue) they have had very basic, or mediocre systems.
Food for thought..."
They know the truth. The playback system is the least important aspect. Either the music touches you or it doesn't. In their world the music always transcends the media and method of playback. We should just relax, enjoy and stop with the nail bitting.
Rob🙂
Food for thought..."
They know the truth. The playback system is the least important aspect. Either the music touches you or it doesn't. In their world the music always transcends the media and method of playback. We should just relax, enjoy and stop with the nail bitting.
Rob🙂
May I rephrase the question?
WHY Hi-Fi?
As noted in the recent posts above, many musicians just don't give a hoot about hi-fi, (tho I've known a few conductors that did.) Are we music lovers, or sound lovers?
So why do we care? Why do we need or want High Fidelity to listen to music? It isn't just about the gear, is it? There are plenty of other hobbies that will satisfy the "cool stuff" urge. Plenty of other "stay at home and build stuff" hobbies.
So why do we hi-fi? Why are we not satisfied with run of the mill systems?
Why are we so obsessed? No easy or simple answer, to be sure - but it would be nice to hear some thoughts on the matter.
WHY Hi-Fi?
As noted in the recent posts above, many musicians just don't give a hoot about hi-fi, (tho I've known a few conductors that did.) Are we music lovers, or sound lovers?
So why do we care? Why do we need or want High Fidelity to listen to music? It isn't just about the gear, is it? There are plenty of other hobbies that will satisfy the "cool stuff" urge. Plenty of other "stay at home and build stuff" hobbies.
So why do we hi-fi? Why are we not satisfied with run of the mill systems?
Why are we so obsessed? No easy or simple answer, to be sure - but it would be nice to hear some thoughts on the matter.
panomaniac said:
OK, time for me to jump in here, I am young (22) and a musician. I have a degree in music and recording technology, yet have grown up around vintage audio equipment, so I know what quality is in both an audio sense and a musical sense.
I love music, I can listen to 128kb mp3's on a crappy shelf system and appreciate it if the music was played or written well, but I am appreciating it for that, not for the way it sounds. Now instead I will play a nice recording on a hi-fi system, or even a studio system, and lets say there is nothing spectacular about the song, but instead it just sounds amazing, clear, separated, 3-dimensional, now I am appreciating it for the way it sounds. Either way I am appreciating it I am drawn in to the music, I can get lost in it. However I will say that it is really easy to get lost in a great recording of a great musician playing a great song being played on a great system.
This brings us to our new question (which is a much better one in my opinion) "Why Hi-Fi?", from my point of view the answer is simple. I feel there are roughly 4 factors that go into a recording being played back and being able to be appreciated, by anyone. First is the song from a musical sense, second is the musician(s) and their skill or lack there of, third is the recording itself (including mixing, mastering, and yes even the medium it is recorded on to, GO VINYL!), and fourth is the system it gets played back on. Typically we only have control of one factor, that is the fourth one, the system. Therefore we who love music will do everything we can to maximize this as it is all we can do to get more out the experience of listening to that music from our end. Granted we do typically have a choice when it comes to mediums as we all have our preference when it comes to purchasing our recordings (again, I know I'm young, but GO VINYL!).
Now as far as the problem with hi-fi? I don't think there is one! We strive to attempt to make our systems better, and thus to attempt to get the most out of our recordings from our side. There is nothing wrong with trying to make anything better. It is after all human nature to better ourselves. Granted much of what is "better" is personal preference, that doesn't mean that one person's preference doesn't matter any less than another person's. EVERY ONE OF OUR HI-FI SYSTEMS SHOULD SOUND DIFFERENT! Because we all have different preferences and tastes. There are three reasons why our systems change, either we get funds to upgrade equipment that we have been saving/waiting for, or we stumble upon some gear that we decide sounds better (or at least maybe we are told it sounds better, so it is human nature to try it), or our preferences change and as such we are no longer satisfied with our systems.
This last point is something that I imagine many hi-fi enthusiasts ignore. Yes, our preferences change, and as such we must modify or adapt our hi-fi systems to meet our new preferences. Have you never had you system sounding "almost perfect", only to decided months down the road that it needs something else? I find my preferences changing sometimes on a week to week basis, it's scary sometimes because I could just imagine all the money I'd be spending if I had it to spend! With this thought on mind I think we must all be forced to realize we will never have "the perfect hi-fi system" because even if we get close for a moment our preference will end up changing again sooner or later.
***steps down from soap box***
Please take all of this with the realization that these are the views of a humble young'n who is very new to the actual hi-fi scene, but has grown up around music. Basically this whole post could be summed up as such... I feel those of us who are attracted to hi-fi are the few who can appreciate a recording for it's audio value not just it's musical value, basically we are sound lovers (a type which is becoming increasingly rare in this day and age), and that the impulse to buy/build new gear is driven by the urge to make something better or to improve upon something, which after all is nothing more than human nature (so build on!).
-Justin
Good to see someone with music and recording background jump into the discussion.despotic931 said:
One question that I had asked in a mic builders forum is, "How do you make sure that the recording signal path from the mic does not get inverted?" The reason I asked because as I gradually improved driver performance, the abosolute polarity preservation becomes an issue, and very important. An article in Ultimate Audio, summer 2000, written my Lars Fredell also pointed this out and listed which brands seem to have polarity a certain way on his system after listening to a few thousand CDs, which also seems to be the same way on my system.
I first discovered mic polarity issues when I started out measuring speakers and discovered that the phase in my results were all 180deg off. This is when I looked into mic and amp, which confirmed that the electrect condensor mic I was using would inver phase when connected to a non-inverting preamplifier.
So now, aside from just listening, which normally absolute polarity can be confirmed within one minute, I also would go through an abosulte polarity test to see if one way is obviously more correct than the other. If it is not obvious, then I think the system is not HiFi enough. Not many people dare to demo this test.
This issue is, when multi-mics are used, and not of the same type or brand, how would a recording engineer determine the correct polarity of the mic, or do they not care at all.
Why Hi Fi
Good question and pondering it my response is:
I just want to hear and feel the emotion and character of the music without anything else getting in the way.
Thinking about this my earlier set-ups did not achieve this.
The bass was boomy and one notey, the treble fragile and tinkly and the smaller details of the performance, the ambience was missing.
I love to hear the fingers on the strings of a well played guitar, the breath in a singers voice, the slap of the bass notes, the ambience of the recording environment, the rasp in brass instruments the individual instruments.
Volume is not that relevant.
But the truth is finding all of the above has been a long hard search, thankfully I never really fell onto the spend more cash syndrome to get there.
Good question and pondering it my response is:
I just want to hear and feel the emotion and character of the music without anything else getting in the way.
Thinking about this my earlier set-ups did not achieve this.
The bass was boomy and one notey, the treble fragile and tinkly and the smaller details of the performance, the ambience was missing.
I love to hear the fingers on the strings of a well played guitar, the breath in a singers voice, the slap of the bass notes, the ambience of the recording environment, the rasp in brass instruments the individual instruments.
Volume is not that relevant.
But the truth is finding all of the above has been a long hard search, thankfully I never really fell onto the spend more cash syndrome to get there.
soongsc said:
They care, it is very much an issue, and the biggest thing that comes into play is the actual placement of the mic, or if using multiple mics placing them in such a way that minimizes phasing issues. However as with anything it's a series of compromises, place a mic in one location and it lacks the desired sound, place it in another different position and you instead now have extreme phasing issues. The worst is when micing drums sets, I have become a fan of the minimalist approach, less is more when it comes to drum mics in a studio setting. The best you can do is listen and play with different mic positions until you get it close, sometimes days are spent just playing with mic placements in the studio. If it is a simple problem of being 180 deg off though that is just a simple flip of a switch, and isn't an issue as it is pretty noticeable in a studio setting. I hope that answers your question.
-Justin
I can. of course, only speak for myself, but others may share my view - let's be honest about our motivation:
I do enjoy music, but I also enjoy hi-fi technology for its own sake about equally.
Why? It's perhaps unique in being (superficially) easy to understand, but also presenting both intellectual and practical challenges at a high level, should one wish to take them up; produces concrete results which one can easily share with others; can be relatively inexpensive; invites private research (many questions remain to be answered); can be taken up and laid down as one has time / inclination; has close connections with a range of related subjects (music, electronics, acoustics, psychology...), any of which can be pursued as takes one's fancy; has historical elements; engenders communities such as the present forum, etc, etc....
Well dnsey - I must say - Spot on! At least where I'm concerned.
The technology of hi-fi is a great seductress. We are all weak for her charms, or we wouldn't be here.
The guys who customise their Harleys are much the same. As much in love with "their ride" (the system) as with "the ride" (the music).
The idea that you can still enjoy your hobby even when it's an obvious work in progress had not occurred to me before. Thanks for that Dnsey. So much like motorcycles.
Live music is magic and recorded music can be deadly. But the better the system, the closer I feel to the music and the musicians. That's what floats my boat.
BTW, thanks Despotic for chiming in. Your posts are very well put, your viewpoint is appreciated. It's nice to know that you can separate the music and the sound of music (apologies to J. Andrews, Rodgers & Hammerstein)
The technology of hi-fi is a great seductress. We are all weak for her charms, or we wouldn't be here.
The guys who customise their Harleys are much the same. As much in love with "their ride" (the system) as with "the ride" (the music).The idea that you can still enjoy your hobby even when it's an obvious work in progress had not occurred to me before. Thanks for that Dnsey. So much like motorcycles.
Live music is magic and recorded music can be deadly. But the better the system, the closer I feel to the music and the musicians. That's what floats my boat.
BTW, thanks Despotic for chiming in. Your posts are very well put, your viewpoint is appreciated. It's nice to know that you can separate the music and the sound of music (apologies to J. Andrews, Rodgers & Hammerstein)
dnsey said:
I think that the important point that many are making here is the clear distinction between the music - the art - and the reproduction - the science. It is critically important to seperate these two things as they are entirely different. What one wants in one may be completely wrong in the other. And we can love one and not the other.
I could see where one might want a loudspeaker to be "flat" and "lifeless" (it shouldn't be "tonal" and "vibrant"), but I would never use these terms to define a great performance.
It is IMO the singular biggest problem in these discussions to NOT seperate these two things.
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