(UPDATE 17th December 2016 @ end of this post)
I have heard about (very) few people playing with CD in hornless config, but i had to try it by myself.
Well, i did.
I got my hand on two pairs of CD:
760NEO (3'' voice coil + 2'' exit)
950PB w/ Beryllium (4'' voice coil + 2'' exit)
For the sake of testing, the ''hornless plate'' is simply a plate made of 15mm thick bamboo. I'm planning to have something even ''more hornless'' with a non-magnetic steel plate (316 stainless).
So, the big question: DOES IT WORK ?
Short answer: yes.
Ok, but does it work GOOD: ?
So far, I LOVE IT.
Check the images....
That's the 950, crossover points 4120hz... 480hz (!)
Also check the EQ: instead of boosting the lower-end, i reduced what i consider the peak of the driver (-13db seems a lot, but... it works flawlessly)
Note: it shows two dips around 560hz and 1400hz that i didnt took care yet, but the important thing is i still have energy at the crossing point of 480hz, which is nothing short of amazing. Since i play at moderate volume (domestic, not stadium needs here) i don't ear or feel any problem whatsover (distortion, xmax limit, etc..)
--------------
(update 17th december)
Quick notes about my impressions on both Compression Drivers in general and Hornless specifically:
PROs
.: Ultra detailed mid, you don't hear that kind of resolution, energy and micro-dynamics from any cone between 400hz and about 1khz.
.: Blend very nicely with ribbon tweeters
.: Hornless config delivers a great airy, open, 3D-like feeling and sonic presentation.
.: High SPL output potential
.: CD drivers like the Radian 950PB and some BMS can have low crossover points, such as 250hz
.: Made for very demanding PA, they permit agressive EQ corrections and lower xover point in domestic environnement.
.: No need for separate enclosure
.: Hornless = simple, compact
.: Changeable diaphragm in case you push one too far...
CONS
.: Most high quality CDs are expensive, especially the neodymium versions
.: Not because it's hornless they lose their high efficiency... and the noise that comes with it, if you have poor electronics...
.: Requires active config for optimal results (massive gain adjustments, EQ, steep xover slopes, etc..)
.: Could work in 2-way (CAST) but optimal results in 3-way or 4-way
.: I don't think the CD technology in general has much to offer passed 4khz in terms on subjective quality, even from the smaller ones. AMT and Ribbons are superior in the last 2 octaves, IMO.
I have heard about (very) few people playing with CD in hornless config, but i had to try it by myself.
Well, i did.
I got my hand on two pairs of CD:
760NEO (3'' voice coil + 2'' exit)
950PB w/ Beryllium (4'' voice coil + 2'' exit)
For the sake of testing, the ''hornless plate'' is simply a plate made of 15mm thick bamboo. I'm planning to have something even ''more hornless'' with a non-magnetic steel plate (316 stainless).
So, the big question: DOES IT WORK ?
Short answer: yes.
Ok, but does it work GOOD: ?
So far, I LOVE IT.
Check the images....
That's the 950, crossover points 4120hz... 480hz (!)
Also check the EQ: instead of boosting the lower-end, i reduced what i consider the peak of the driver (-13db seems a lot, but... it works flawlessly)
Note: it shows two dips around 560hz and 1400hz that i didnt took care yet, but the important thing is i still have energy at the crossing point of 480hz, which is nothing short of amazing. Since i play at moderate volume (domestic, not stadium needs here) i don't ear or feel any problem whatsover (distortion, xmax limit, etc..)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
--------------
(update 17th december)
Quick notes about my impressions on both Compression Drivers in general and Hornless specifically:
PROs
.: Ultra detailed mid, you don't hear that kind of resolution, energy and micro-dynamics from any cone between 400hz and about 1khz.
.: Blend very nicely with ribbon tweeters
.: Hornless config delivers a great airy, open, 3D-like feeling and sonic presentation.
.: High SPL output potential
.: CD drivers like the Radian 950PB and some BMS can have low crossover points, such as 250hz
.: Made for very demanding PA, they permit agressive EQ corrections and lower xover point in domestic environnement.
.: No need for separate enclosure
.: Hornless = simple, compact
.: Changeable diaphragm in case you push one too far...
CONS
.: Most high quality CDs are expensive, especially the neodymium versions
.: Not because it's hornless they lose their high efficiency... and the noise that comes with it, if you have poor electronics...
.: Requires active config for optimal results (massive gain adjustments, EQ, steep xover slopes, etc..)
.: Could work in 2-way (CAST) but optimal results in 3-way or 4-way
.: I don't think the CD technology in general has much to offer passed 4khz in terms on subjective quality, even from the smaller ones. AMT and Ribbons are superior in the last 2 octaves, IMO.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
FYI: i'm using a DEQX as crossover & EQ
RAAL tweeters, Volt midbass BM2500.4 and JL audio 10W7 subwoofers, all driven by ICEpower amps.
Been there, they are not made for that, the beauty & elegance is in the phase plug and the wide bandwidth, the ultra light dome in a powerful magnetic radiating through the phase plug through an acoustic transformer to couple to the air. The transient response and liveleness you get with the horn and it's high efficiency. The ease and unrestrained dynamics.With the amount of eq needed with what you are doing just buy some good domes.
Been there, they are not made for that, the beauty & elegance is in the phase plug and the wide bandwidth, the ultra light dome in a powerful magnetic radiating through the phase plug through an acoustic transformer to couple to the air. The transient response and liveleness you get with the horn and it's high efficiency. The ease and unrestrained dynamics.With the amount of eq needed with what you are doing just buy some good domes.
All true. But it does sound good. Better than dome tweeter i reckon
Been there, they are not made for that, the beauty & elegance is in the phase plug and the wide bandwidth
Will have to slightly disagree on that one:
The real 'beauty & elegance' is not achievable with any compression driver starting from 4-5khz, IMO.
They're completely outclassed by the best AMT and Ribbons.
the ultra light dome in a powerful magnetic radiating through the phase plug through an acoustic transformer to couple to the air. The transient response and liveleness you get with the horn and it's high efficiency, the ease and unrestrained dynamics.
A CD like the Radian 760 or 950 are very (VERY) efficient, even without any horn. I'm having a 12db gain differencial on the DEQX between my 64-10 (4ohms) and these 950 (8 ohms), that is even considering the -13db on the EQ (!!). How 'bout that ?
There is no lack of energy, transient response, liveliness and unrestrained dynamics (macro/micro) here, whatsoever... believe me.
With the amount of eq needed with what you are doing just buy some good domes.
Actually, i think the EQing is pretty soft if you take into consideration everything... Look at the graphs above, basically i only dim the natural ascendant FR from about 1.2khz... and still got a positive 12db differencial.
a good dome?
The image you see above are the very speakers i'm having for the last 10 years, which were built specifically for the well-known ATC domes (SM75-150). I probably listened to them 10,000 hours if not more... I can tell you this: they are not the same animals as these 950PBbe hornless. Not even close.
How can i describe what i'm hearing now ? Well, imagine the openness of the ATC, but with much more resolution and dynamics, but still smooth, not annoying.
Or, imagine the feeling of the RAAL 140-15D... in the 500-1500hz range!
Paired with ribbons tweeters, it's nothing short of jaw-dropping. And i only have the entry-level RAALs...
Never been a fan of the compression drivers.
And i'm starting to think it's because of two things:
1. I don't like them in the last 2 octaves.
2. I don't care about horns.
I want openness, i like 3D soundstage, very airy. Havent heard a single time any horn that did not annoy me after 5 or 10 min... There is some kind of 'claustrophobic-hyper-focused' feeling from the horns, that i'm obviously allergic from...
But now, for the very first time, i'm hearing the true potential of CD.
...and wow, guys... Can't wait to put a good DAC on these babies.
And i'm starting to think it's because of two things:
1. I don't like them in the last 2 octaves.
2. I don't care about horns.
I want openness, i like 3D soundstage, very airy. Havent heard a single time any horn that did not annoy me after 5 or 10 min... There is some kind of 'claustrophobic-hyper-focused' feeling from the horns, that i'm obviously allergic from...
But now, for the very first time, i'm hearing the true potential of CD.
...and wow, guys... Can't wait to put a good DAC on these babies.
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just a quick disclaimer here: i'm using 300db per octave crossovers
please just don't try this at home with 6db/oct passive crossovers and then blame me because you blew your CDs! haha
please just don't try this at home with 6db/oct passive crossovers and then blame me because you blew your CDs! haha
Damn. It sounds so f***** fantastic. It's 2:30am here i need to go to sleep.
Last time i had such an audio-orgasm was with a Weiss DAC1 mk3.
I should combine both. With a 25 years-old single malt. Oh man, life is good sometimes...
Last time i had such an audio-orgasm was with a Weiss DAC1 mk3.
I should combine both. With a 25 years-old single malt. Oh man, life is good sometimes...
I'm STILL an audiophile because of those nights.
You never know when it's gonna hit, but when it happens, you're like on ecstasy... Rediscovering the music you like, completely mesmerized, completely drowned into the sounds... It never last, but -oh boy- how magic it is....
You never know when it's gonna hit, but when it happens, you're like on ecstasy... Rediscovering the music you like, completely mesmerized, completely drowned into the sounds... It never last, but -oh boy- how magic it is....
I think I'm right in saying that the famous Celestion HF1300 (Spendor BC1,BC2 and BC3) early B&W (DM4, 2a) IMF transmissions lines, Rogers etc. begun life as a driver for a horn system. Also I've seen traces that show that the distinctive "turbine" plate is essential to maintaining the higher frequencies.
Not the same animal but the theory is similar..
I've opened ElCheepo Piezo tweets and removed the element from the horn enclosure, leaving the paper cone connected to the element. Mounting was using the existing wiring connected to the element suspended in air. Experimented with rear reflective materials with different surfaces and distance from materials and crossover points and angle of cone. A whole new tweet without "Honkiness"..
I've opened ElCheepo Piezo tweets and removed the element from the horn enclosure, leaving the paper cone connected to the element. Mounting was using the existing wiring connected to the element suspended in air. Experimented with rear reflective materials with different surfaces and distance from materials and crossover points and angle of cone. A whole new tweet without "Honkiness"..
Damn. It sounds so f***** fantastic. It's 2:30am here i need to go to sleep...
This from the box pictured with the tweeter set in the open hole?
Just checkin'.
Barry.
This from the box pictured with the tweeter set in the open hole?
Just checkin'.
Barry.
Agreed: it's a bit ghetto, right now.. 😱
But it delivers, nonetheless.
I'm testing many things at the same time in order to plan my next project (10 years: due for a major change)
very interesting...
what is the radiation pattern of a CD with 2" mouth sans horn?
Good question. I'd be curious to know...
My guest is it should be similar to a 2'' cone
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