Member
Joined 2002
Connector's Not even expensive ones!
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Hi Jase,
Thanks for your breakdown.
As I disclosed oh so many blogs ago what went into them, you have just re-iterated that. Everyone here is a DIYer and either knows the costs or at least can find out what they are. I didn't make it too difficult for you to figure out, did I? Companies used, RCA plugs used, etc...
So, my question to you is this.
You would disregard any cable based on what is used and not how they sound? I think most people would disagree with that sensibility. Most audiophilers would at least listen to the quality before disregarding them. I know there are audiophilers who are very picky about their terminations and may not use them base on that. But on that note....
Aren't you using Neutriks yourself. Maybe a better grade? Or are you just reselling the "cheapest connector" you have ever seen?
Anyhow, I do appreciate your honesty.
I would like to know how much you are selling your RCA interconnects for.
Just have to tell you honestly, I think our interconnects beat the crap out of anything less, thus our pricing. Unless you put them back together and try them out, I guess you'll never know and remain extremely opinionated without all the research.
Lastly, I am not targeting DIYers as my market. I am targeting audiophilers who don't DIY and want good quality for the money. Despite that you're thinking they are too expensive, they have been tested (by others) against so many other interconnects that are much more expensive and they've liked ours better. So in this case and everything else we do: the quality of the end product is our main objective, costs are second, and looks are last. Go figure....
Frank
Thanks for your breakdown.
As I disclosed oh so many blogs ago what went into them, you have just re-iterated that. Everyone here is a DIYer and either knows the costs or at least can find out what they are. I didn't make it too difficult for you to figure out, did I? Companies used, RCA plugs used, etc...
So, my question to you is this.
You would disregard any cable based on what is used and not how they sound? I think most people would disagree with that sensibility. Most audiophilers would at least listen to the quality before disregarding them. I know there are audiophilers who are very picky about their terminations and may not use them base on that. But on that note....
Aren't you using Neutriks yourself. Maybe a better grade? Or are you just reselling the "cheapest connector" you have ever seen?
Anyhow, I do appreciate your honesty.
I would like to know how much you are selling your RCA interconnects for.
Just have to tell you honestly, I think our interconnects beat the crap out of anything less, thus our pricing. Unless you put them back together and try them out, I guess you'll never know and remain extremely opinionated without all the research.
Lastly, I am not targeting DIYers as my market. I am targeting audiophilers who don't DIY and want good quality for the money. Despite that you're thinking they are too expensive, they have been tested (by others) against so many other interconnects that are much more expensive and they've liked ours better. So in this case and everything else we do: the quality of the end product is our main objective, costs are second, and looks are last. Go figure....
Frank
Member
Joined 2002
some one who buys the cables and pays 89$ us and see's that they are 1$ per pair of connectors and 2$ for cable is going to be pretty upset. I know i sure would be.
Im using Neutrik, but i got better ones, not the 1$ ones. You should understand people will pay for good quality stuff, people WILL NOT pay for low quality cheap cables.
I did listen to it, to me it sounded very basic and close to a cheap cable.
Frank, do you know what is the insulation/dielectric material of the wires you use in the interconnects?
BTW the $1 (each) Neutrik's are good, and are used by many DIY cables ebay sellers due to their claimed sonic qualities... Sure, the ProFi would be better, but they cost much more...and they have that nasty spring contact for ground.
BTW the $1 (each) Neutrik's are good, and are used by many DIY cables ebay sellers due to their claimed sonic qualities... Sure, the ProFi would be better, but they cost much more...and they have that nasty spring contact for ground.
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Frank, I recommend that you build one IC with some mid-/high quality RCA plugs and other with same you use now. Then listen to both of them and see if there is any difference and if it's worth to use more expensive plugs. 😉
Igor
Igor
Personally I find the Neutrik plugs to be just fine sonically. I dislike the higher grade "ProFi" Neutrik's because of the untypical construction.
Sure, Cardas connectors, or even better, the all-silver connectors of my Audioquest King Cobra ( 😎 ) should be better than the cheap-and-good Neutrik's. 🙂
Sure, Cardas connectors, or even better, the all-silver connectors of my Audioquest King Cobra ( 😎 ) should be better than the cheap-and-good Neutrik's. 🙂
Member
Joined 2002
I like the fact that i can unplug the rca and not have any buzzing when plugging into another piece of equipment, because the first contact is GROUND not center pin. 🙂
My point here was, the cables use cheap connectors, upgrading them to better ones plus better wire would help.!
I will postpone any judgment to when I finally receive mine 🙂
But I'm not bothered by the plugs, because I know they're good (among others, I have a solid silver ebay.co.uk interconnect with them...sounds fine).
I admit that (at least before I actually get to hear the cables) I'm more uncertain about the wire...especially the dielectric.
Likewise i wouldn't be put off by either the plugs or the wire until I heard them against my own silver in teflon twisted pair/wbt chinese clone terminations. One small concern I would have about those RCAs is their longevity. I've had some of the cheaper ones go "loose" as the ground part of the plug gets stretched from constant plugging and unplugging.
Maybe those RCAs are hardier though, I've never had exactly that type here.
In short, I would wait until I hear the cable. Oh yeah, one other thing, in my experience non-DIY audiophiles love a bit of bling to their cables. Might be something that would help your sales....
Fran
Maybe those RCAs are hardier though, I've never had exactly that type here.
In short, I would wait until I hear the cable. Oh yeah, one other thing, in my experience non-DIY audiophiles love a bit of bling to their cables. Might be something that would help your sales....
Fran
I've been watching these various threads from the start.
So now for my 2c worth now that I have seen the photos and read comments.
I would not buy them !!
Why ? They look cheap. (even with the braiding)
First Impressions count most and that is not the listening test in most cases (at least in the target market you have stated).
Magazine reviewers (and you need some) will immediately mark the product down on looks.
As the comments above say, Good packaging with the right amount of WOW! factor is a good start. Connectors that say QUALITY.
Another thing .. if the wire used is the best (optimum) from several different types and you are going to continue using it, ask the supplier to "custom" print it with your name (or no name). It would look so much better.
Andy
So now for my 2c worth now that I have seen the photos and read comments.
I would not buy them !!
Why ? They look cheap. (even with the braiding)
First Impressions count most and that is not the listening test in most cases (at least in the target market you have stated).
Magazine reviewers (and you need some) will immediately mark the product down on looks.
As the comments above say, Good packaging with the right amount of WOW! factor is a good start. Connectors that say QUALITY.
Another thing .. if the wire used is the best (optimum) from several different types and you are going to continue using it, ask the supplier to "custom" print it with your name (or no name). It would look so much better.
Andy
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Member
Joined 2002
There are like 3 or 4 or thread all relating to one, i would have thought the mod's would have deleted 3 or merged them all to one, but nope.!
Lots of things to get done to these cables for them to be good. As of now, just cheap wire and cheap connectors.
J'
Back after a day of skiing with my family. I'm still on vacation somewhat...
I like Jases idea of better jacks. I stand by Neutrik as a solid product. Obviously in the future we will offer a much better cable with much better components, but you've got to start somewhere.
Blacksheep has a good interconnect that sounds good, looks different, but still needs to be polished commercially. I am also aware (now more than ever) that no product will ever have 100% approval rating.
By the way Fran they are pretty sturdy. What did you think Jase while you were disecting them? We use silver sodder then put a spot of silicon glue on them. That usually keeps normal people from destroying them or taking them apart. Appearently not DIYers.
As for the price, it seems to work ok in Thailand. We have been selling them in Thailand and haven't had any returns or complaints. One person has bought a total of 7 BKM interconnects because his friends like his. They're not flying off the shelves by any means, but the consumer awareness & confidence of & in Blacksheep Kable is building. We must be doing something right.
Yes, I know the US is a different market! That's why I'm here!
As for Andrea, I'll call Thailand tomorrow and tell them to ship another this time something using more reliable methods. I'm not sure how they went out last time. Hopefully all uncertainties will be revealed when you finally get yours...sorry for the wait...
Last note: Jase, if you didn't like them, you could have returned them for your money back. But since you didn't buy them now, you're stuck with them. Unless you really really really don't want them , then I will pay for return shipping. Normally we allow a seven day money back gaurentee. Normally people don't disect them. I expected nothing less from you Jase. Thanks for the nice picts.
"Honesty is great, you just don't have to believe it..."
Frank
I like Jases idea of better jacks. I stand by Neutrik as a solid product. Obviously in the future we will offer a much better cable with much better components, but you've got to start somewhere.
Blacksheep has a good interconnect that sounds good, looks different, but still needs to be polished commercially. I am also aware (now more than ever) that no product will ever have 100% approval rating.
By the way Fran they are pretty sturdy. What did you think Jase while you were disecting them? We use silver sodder then put a spot of silicon glue on them. That usually keeps normal people from destroying them or taking them apart. Appearently not DIYers.
As for the price, it seems to work ok in Thailand. We have been selling them in Thailand and haven't had any returns or complaints. One person has bought a total of 7 BKM interconnects because his friends like his. They're not flying off the shelves by any means, but the consumer awareness & confidence of & in Blacksheep Kable is building. We must be doing something right.
Yes, I know the US is a different market! That's why I'm here!
As for Andrea, I'll call Thailand tomorrow and tell them to ship another this time something using more reliable methods. I'm not sure how they went out last time. Hopefully all uncertainties will be revealed when you finally get yours...sorry for the wait...
Last note: Jase, if you didn't like them, you could have returned them for your money back. But since you didn't buy them now, you're stuck with them. Unless you really really really don't want them , then I will pay for return shipping. Normally we allow a seven day money back gaurentee. Normally people don't disect them. I expected nothing less from you Jase. Thanks for the nice picts.
"Honesty is great, you just don't have to believe it..."
Frank
Member
Joined 2002
there is no silver solder in here at all, there is also no hot glue or any thing, i twas cheap wire cheap connector soldered with cheap solder and cheap heat shrink that looked and felt like 1mm thick not even, it was very thin. Ill try to take a way better macro shot of the soldering and plug tonight.
Jase
Sorry Andy,
I missed yours. Yes, you are right, Blacksheep Kables launched before they were finished commercially. The market in Thailand is different. We already have the company for custom printed heat-shrink sleeves, unprinted wires, we have packaging that still needs some work, and redo plugs and the way they look, etc. All doable. Blacksheep's Mars interconnect was initially made for personal use.
Last...these are demos...demos...do I really have to explain that? I'm looking for feedback and I am happy to get it. Thanks Andy
Frank
I missed yours. Yes, you are right, Blacksheep Kables launched before they were finished commercially. The market in Thailand is different. We already have the company for custom printed heat-shrink sleeves, unprinted wires, we have packaging that still needs some work, and redo plugs and the way they look, etc. All doable. Blacksheep's Mars interconnect was initially made for personal use.
Last...these are demos...demos...do I really have to explain that? I'm looking for feedback and I am happy to get it. Thanks Andy
Frank
I don't do the soddering myself. I mainly braid and try to sell. Actually, when I look at you're photo, it doesn't look like any remnants of glue. As for the sodder, I'll look into that. I pay for the silver sodder... This is why business is hard...
Frank
Frank
Hello comrades,
Just a few thoughts for now, as I haven't had a *lot* of time yet this week to dedicate to listening, but did want to assure everyone (mostly Frank) that I didn't take his cables and run. 😀
Here's the current setup:
Rega Apollo -> BKM -> Promitheus Audio TVC passive pre -> RH84 (single-ended EL84 amp) -> Fostex FE206e
For testing purposes the BKMs are replacing Morrow Audio MA3s, which are currently my reference IC - probably not a fair fight... The Morrows are 1.5M vs. the 1M BKMs.
My initial impressions from the last couple nights have been that the high and mid-range frequencies seem to be accentuated, whereas the bass is either a little shy or not clearly defined; the behavior seems to be dependant on the recording.
As I type this, I'm listening to a mostly acoustic recording (Bill Frisell's "Disfarmer"), and the bass is almost overpowering - but again, the overall sense is of booming bass rather than a well-defined plucking of the lower acoustic bass strings (e.g. open E) and subsequent decay. OTOH, all of the the instruments are easily located and the soundstage is quite wide - wider than the Morrows, actually. It seems that the higher the frequency, the better defined the instrument. In short, it strikes me as a "bright" cable.
Having said all that, I would not be surprised if both extremes normalized a bit, if not significantly, with break-in - the Morrows certainly did. If it's OK with Frank, I'd like to do just that; I can leave the source running through the passive pre but with the amp turned off. I think 50 hours or so would do in order to get a sense of whether break in helps in the slightest
Now, regarding aesthetics, materials, etc.... I have to say, Frank, that this is as tough a crowd as you're going to find in the audio community. We DIYers all quite familiar with what goes into building an amp, a speaker, or a cable. We know what the raw materials cost because we source and use them ourselves. This should be obvious, but I mention it because I get the sense that you may not be aware that you've been swinging at a hornets' nest instead of a pinata... I frequent most of the online forums, though I must admit that I'm not intimately familiar with their policies - though I know at least one that has a dedicated and varied group of vendor forums. Contact me offline if you'd like to discuss further.
OK, back to the cables. I don't mind the connectors. They fit snugly - not too loose, not too tight. I have some cables that I really have to work at to remove, which is not fun given the placement of my rack. I don't swap cables on live equipment, so I can't comment on the grounding issue. I also always turn my amp off before my sources - and hey, I don't hear any thumps when I power down my CD player. But I digress...
I don't know what to say about the wire. I don't think that "wire is wire" - I am partial to solid rather than stranded, and prefer teflon over PVC, etc., but c'mon - you can't expect Frank to source his wire from Michael Percy or Parts Connexion.
Could Frank use better materials? Of course. But keep in mind that he says himself that these aren't intended to be top of the line cables. For me the bottom line is whether the cables sound good or not.
I plan to do a lot more listening with a variety of recordings, both during and after my proposed break-in period. I'll keep you all posted.
Just a few thoughts for now, as I haven't had a *lot* of time yet this week to dedicate to listening, but did want to assure everyone (mostly Frank) that I didn't take his cables and run. 😀
Here's the current setup:
Rega Apollo -> BKM -> Promitheus Audio TVC passive pre -> RH84 (single-ended EL84 amp) -> Fostex FE206e
For testing purposes the BKMs are replacing Morrow Audio MA3s, which are currently my reference IC - probably not a fair fight... The Morrows are 1.5M vs. the 1M BKMs.
My initial impressions from the last couple nights have been that the high and mid-range frequencies seem to be accentuated, whereas the bass is either a little shy or not clearly defined; the behavior seems to be dependant on the recording.
As I type this, I'm listening to a mostly acoustic recording (Bill Frisell's "Disfarmer"), and the bass is almost overpowering - but again, the overall sense is of booming bass rather than a well-defined plucking of the lower acoustic bass strings (e.g. open E) and subsequent decay. OTOH, all of the the instruments are easily located and the soundstage is quite wide - wider than the Morrows, actually. It seems that the higher the frequency, the better defined the instrument. In short, it strikes me as a "bright" cable.
Having said all that, I would not be surprised if both extremes normalized a bit, if not significantly, with break-in - the Morrows certainly did. If it's OK with Frank, I'd like to do just that; I can leave the source running through the passive pre but with the amp turned off. I think 50 hours or so would do in order to get a sense of whether break in helps in the slightest
Now, regarding aesthetics, materials, etc.... I have to say, Frank, that this is as tough a crowd as you're going to find in the audio community. We DIYers all quite familiar with what goes into building an amp, a speaker, or a cable. We know what the raw materials cost because we source and use them ourselves. This should be obvious, but I mention it because I get the sense that you may not be aware that you've been swinging at a hornets' nest instead of a pinata... I frequent most of the online forums, though I must admit that I'm not intimately familiar with their policies - though I know at least one that has a dedicated and varied group of vendor forums. Contact me offline if you'd like to discuss further.
OK, back to the cables. I don't mind the connectors. They fit snugly - not too loose, not too tight. I have some cables that I really have to work at to remove, which is not fun given the placement of my rack. I don't swap cables on live equipment, so I can't comment on the grounding issue. I also always turn my amp off before my sources - and hey, I don't hear any thumps when I power down my CD player. But I digress...
I don't know what to say about the wire. I don't think that "wire is wire" - I am partial to solid rather than stranded, and prefer teflon over PVC, etc., but c'mon - you can't expect Frank to source his wire from Michael Percy or Parts Connexion.
Could Frank use better materials? Of course. But keep in mind that he says himself that these aren't intended to be top of the line cables. For me the bottom line is whether the cables sound good or not.
I plan to do a lot more listening with a variety of recordings, both during and after my proposed break-in period. I'll keep you all posted.
Will you elaborate what kind of cheap cable you referred to?
I have quite a few here, and the BKM's do sound much better than them. As posted previous, I compared the MKM's to some that were not cheap from $$'s standpoint (e.g $75 for a pair of 0.5m DH Labs silver plated IC). I assume those you braided don't sound cheap. Can you offer to the community for free demo? If so, I will love to try it out. I think it will be good for my education purpose and probably someone else, too.
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