Science is easy.
You come up with a hypothesis (you already have that).
You test your hypothesis (it seems you did that, but we're not sure).
That's about it.
If you share your findings with all the information needed to back your arguments and in a way such that your work could be reproduced by others, you might be able to convince people about your conclusions.
Why should Joe??? You don't like it, leave this thread and create your own thread. your post is not usefull anyway for Elsinore builders
The schematic is shown with all long written in Joe's website, if you don't follow/like then stop replying/asking in this thread.
There hundreds of people already confinced by building Elsinore, you only post on your self satisfaction for back-and-forth posting like this with no intention to build it.
Past history has made me wiser. Social media can be poisonous, egos and not science rules!
Even when you say 'convince' makes my antennae twitch. I am not about to prove anything. Yes I have posted measurements in the past. Big mistake. No effort was made to understand them. I showed very convincing measurements and modeling that shows that there was dB-SPL that was proportional to the current when you compared current drive with voltage drive. This was a very clever test that my own guys understood because they actually could see and wanted to see that the logic stood up. I posted this three times and there was no effort to understand it and a bunch of equations that predicted the proportional difference in dB-SPL. It was striking evidence! Eventually one of them tweaked and asked questions that indicated he had understood that I was onto something.
Now I am not saying that you are like them. But can you blame me for being cagey?
So I will now use conventional peer review. These include a number of physicists who actually are also audiophiles and can see that I am exploring something that is really interesting. They also know that I am not moved by an ego the size of a giant melon, because they actually know the real me.
No, social media is not the place. I only wish it was, but it has simply become a battle of egos and put-downs. Sad, but this is how it is. Welcome to the 'Pmurt' era! Getit? 😉
Sorry, got nothing against you personally or indeed anybody.
Have you heard the Elsinores? Forget the ideology and listening to them is my calling card. None of my detractors have even heard them. Enuff said?
Cheers (as always), Joe 🙂
PS: Did you know that the Force factor only occurs inside the gap where only 30% on average of the length of the Voice Coil is inside the gap. Ask yourself, what role does the rest, the 70% of the length of the Voice coil, what does it actually do? Well, I have maths that tells you what it does, and that it has a passive role should be clear. Typically this includes around 4 Ohm DC resistance that is directly in series with the output impedance of any amplifier. Why is this never mentioned and does it not make a mockery of the so-called Damping Factor. Do the maths, they are not that hard to work out if you have a good basic understanding of how a driver works and that the damping (factor?) is solely down to the alignment alone. I was taught that in 1975 by Richard H. Small. Do you even know who he is? Not exactly a lightweight in our field.
Even when you say 'convince' makes my antennae twitch. I am not about to prove anything. Yes I have posted measurements in the past. Big mistake. No effort was made to understand them. I showed very convincing measurements and modeling that shows that there was dB-SPL that was proportional to the current when you compared current drive with voltage drive. This was a very clever test that my own guys understood because they actually could see and wanted to see that the logic stood up. I posted this three times and there was no effort to understand it and a bunch of equations that predicted the proportional difference in dB-SPL. It was striking evidence! Eventually one of them tweaked and asked questions that indicated he had understood that I was onto something.
Now I am not saying that you are like them. But can you blame me for being cagey?
So I will now use conventional peer review. These include a number of physicists who actually are also audiophiles and can see that I am exploring something that is really interesting. They also know that I am not moved by an ego the size of a giant melon, because they actually know the real me.
No, social media is not the place. I only wish it was, but it has simply become a battle of egos and put-downs. Sad, but this is how it is. Welcome to the 'Pmurt' era! Getit? 😉
Sorry, got nothing against you personally or indeed anybody.
Have you heard the Elsinores? Forget the ideology and listening to them is my calling card. None of my detractors have even heard them. Enuff said?
Cheers (as always), Joe 🙂
PS: Did you know that the Force factor only occurs inside the gap where only 30% on average of the length of the Voice Coil is inside the gap. Ask yourself, what role does the rest, the 70% of the length of the Voice coil, what does it actually do? Well, I have maths that tells you what it does, and that it has a passive role should be clear. Typically this includes around 4 Ohm DC resistance that is directly in series with the output impedance of any amplifier. Why is this never mentioned and does it not make a mockery of the so-called Damping Factor. Do the maths, they are not that hard to work out if you have a good basic understanding of how a driver works and that the damping (factor?) is solely down to the alignment alone. I was taught that in 1975 by Richard H. Small. Do you even know who he is? Not exactly a lightweight in our field.
I saw your measurements of the current distortion at the output terminals of the amplifier, is that what you are referring to?
Maybe there needs to be a separate thread in the amplifier area of the site so that those who have built the elsinore, or are intending to build the elsinore, don't have to "listen" to all the squabbling.
Joe, thanks for all that you have shared. The Elsinore is an amazing speaker and building it was a lot of fun. I honestly don't think I'll need another speaker. 🙂
I'm still keen to understand, in layman's terms, why JarBar found an improvement without the two LCR sections of the bass crossover. Given that I have actually built the Elsinore, I have an interest if it can be made better in any way.
Based on the frequency spectrum posted by Joe on his website it's flat and there isn't a dip in the low mids. If that's the case then how is JarBar hearing an increase/improvement in low mids? Reading between the lines, and dangerously not understanding the science discussed, was the amplifier Joe used to plot the frequency different in such a way that the frequency spectrum was flat for it, but the combination of JarBar's amplifier and the original crossover is causing a dip in the low mids. As such, when JarBar removes the LCR, there is a difference in what he's hearing?
Joe, thanks for all that you have shared. The Elsinore is an amazing speaker and building it was a lot of fun. I honestly don't think I'll need another speaker. 🙂
I'm still keen to understand, in layman's terms, why JarBar found an improvement without the two LCR sections of the bass crossover. Given that I have actually built the Elsinore, I have an interest if it can be made better in any way.
Based on the frequency spectrum posted by Joe on his website it's flat and there isn't a dip in the low mids. If that's the case then how is JarBar hearing an increase/improvement in low mids? Reading between the lines, and dangerously not understanding the science discussed, was the amplifier Joe used to plot the frequency different in such a way that the frequency spectrum was flat for it, but the combination of JarBar's amplifier and the original crossover is causing a dip in the low mids. As such, when JarBar removes the LCR, there is a difference in what he's hearing?
Not being a detractor perse, I heard them.
In my memory they are decent 2,5 way ported speakers, nothing "special".
Main strength is IMO well documented building instructions.
Joe, social media might not be your cup of tea, but you need social media to market your stuff.
Without, there would not have been "hundreds of builders"....
tompa909, the amplifier may be different but the idea is to EQ the speaker impedance with the Zobels. It's more likely to be a difference in the impedance of the individual drivers.
Ah, interesting. I wonder if JarBar applied the Bolserst mod to "smooth" the impedance mismatch between drivers. If so, that would limit the impact somewhat right?
I don't know what that mod is. Bare in mind a Zobel is for the benefit of the amplifier and/or crossover
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Joe, you are going in circles. You keep writing that you have data that show something new, and that you know things that others don't. Don't you think it's pretty normal that people will ask to see this stuff? Don't you think it's actually a good thing if people are critical by not just believing everything without seeing proper data and clear arguments?
Either show your evidence for whatever discovery you made, or stop bragging about it.
Either show your evidence for whatever discovery you made, or stop bragging about it.
That's what tends to happen. He raises the subject, then when he's asked more about it or his statements are queried or challenged he says he doesn't want to talk about it. It makes me wonder why he raises it in the first place.
Most of the above is wrong. You're buddy you keep quoting was a petroleum engineer not an EE. I posted ages ago the figure from his website and why it is wrong. A poorly designed class A/B amplifier has crossover distortion into a purely resistive load. This all, of course, has nothing to do with driver distortion. This line of argumentation ends up being looking at pictures and deciding which ones feel nicer.
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I am becoming more convinced that you cannot do science on social media and certainly not here.
Science has to be able to withstand inspection and opposition. It need to be able to defend itself with indisputable stringency and proof. Or it will fail to be believed.
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Nothing wrong with petroleum engineers, but I'd like to learn more about how he's wrong. I personally didn't get his point, since by definition class AB amps are operating at Class A at low output, so his switching argument does not seem to apply. But maybe there's something else that I have missied. Can you provide some pointers?
Who is you, me? I read your line to mean "I am becoming more convinced that I (you) cannot do science." full stop.