duvixan:
For what little it's worth, my Elsinores (MFC) replaced my Egglestonworks Andras in my main system. There is no doubt the Andras are terrific loudspeakers; my pair is now installed in my second stereo system. They just weren't nearly as good as the Elsinores.
Regards,
Scott
For what little it's worth, my Elsinores (MFC) replaced my Egglestonworks Andras in my main system. There is no doubt the Andras are terrific loudspeakers; my pair is now installed in my second stereo system. They just weren't nearly as good as the Elsinores.
Regards,
Scott
Interesting, but... not really needed. That would mean a total redesign, box and dice. Definitely a bigger box. Also, even if tried, it would have problems with matching sensitivity etc. But 4 x MW16P it could be done quite nicely with few changes to the box, fundamentally the same.
You’d need to be at least 5/8th Norwegian to be allowed in Wine-Walhalla 🤣. That said, a true Czech Bud… that I can get behind. Literally.
Another interesting question Joe; would you consider a “beyond the Elsinores” type project?
I am not even sure what that means? Is "beyond' a reference to something else that I am doing, like "Beyond Triode"?
Lynn Olson.... Beyond Ariel 2007 onward, I see.
That is a sprawling thread, was there ever a model/speaker decided and then it became the Ariel next model?
I met Lynn back in 2004 (ETF04) and at the table we had a discussion about lot of things and not all about audio. I hope that I don't get into trouble, but I have pretty good idea that his favourite colour is not Orange. I won't add or respond any further on, but Lynn is a gentleman. He has been complimentary about my approach to speakers.
Down below is a link below which makes good reading for those who want to get into further into speakers, even if the article is a bit dated, much of the info is still good and informative:
Link: The Family of Direct Radiators
Below, is Lynn praying for rain?
Lynn Olson and John Atwood.
That is a sprawling thread, was there ever a model/speaker decided and then it became the Ariel next model?
I met Lynn back in 2004 (ETF04) and at the table we had a discussion about lot of things and not all about audio. I hope that I don't get into trouble, but I have pretty good idea that his favourite colour is not Orange. I won't add or respond any further on, but Lynn is a gentleman. He has been complimentary about my approach to speakers.
Down below is a link below which makes good reading for those who want to get into further into speakers, even if the article is a bit dated, much of the info is still good and informative:
Link: The Family of Direct Radiators
Below, is Lynn praying for rain?
Lynn Olson and John Atwood.
I think it was just a question about what kind of design would you envision as a step-up from the Elsinores..
Thanks duvixan, that’s exactly what I meant. It’s not a criticism with regards to the Elsinores. I’d be more than pleased if I’d ever published/invented anything that was enjoyed by so many.
Was just wandering where Joe would venture after or beyond them. If anywhere of course?
Was just wandering where Joe would venture after or beyond them. If anywhere of course?
If only things were simple. I do have another recent design and it is a 2-Way. But it is not slated for DIY.
It has occurred to me that I may be the only loudspeaker designer that puts the emphasis on the electrical side whilst definitely keeping an eye on what the amplifier does on the acoustic side? For example, some have identified that they prefer low-order crossovers, that there is something about the sound. I agree. John Atkinson of Stereophile said back in 2011 in his RMAF2011 lecture (here), that there is something "accessible" about the sound of 1st order crossovers and he has no clue why. Troels Gravesen, well-known by many here, he has over time gravitated towards 1st order as well. It has its challenges, but something about it makes it sound better to their ears. They point to the acoustic side of 1st order, but I strongly believe the answers lie on the electrical side, the interface between the amplifier and the speaker. The trend towards current-drive I believe supports that. Just my Tuppence worth, but I am working on presenting some interesting things.
It has occurred to me that I may be the only loudspeaker designer that puts the emphasis on the electrical side whilst definitely keeping an eye on what the amplifier does on the acoustic side? For example, some have identified that they prefer low-order crossovers, that there is something about the sound. I agree. John Atkinson of Stereophile said back in 2011 in his RMAF2011 lecture (here), that there is something "accessible" about the sound of 1st order crossovers and he has no clue why. Troels Gravesen, well-known by many here, he has over time gravitated towards 1st order as well. It has its challenges, but something about it makes it sound better to their ears. They point to the acoustic side of 1st order, but I strongly believe the answers lie on the electrical side, the interface between the amplifier and the speaker. The trend towards current-drive I believe supports that. Just my Tuppence worth, but I am working on presenting some interesting things.
I am doing some 1.8uF Tweeter capacitor comparisons right now with the "NBAC" Elsinores and it is very interesting. It is easy to do right now as the crossover is still external.
The three caps are real copper based and there is definitely a difference. All three are very high quality and they are True Copper Max, the Miflex and the third is a big Duelund JDM410 cap and has to be mounted off the PCB. There are definite differences alright. Give me a couple more days and I will report back.
Will this affect the choice of the other Elsinores and the Hamlets too? Absolutely! In fact I found myself surprised at the results I am clearly hearing. So will be back soon.
The three caps are real copper based and there is definitely a difference. All three are very high quality and they are True Copper Max, the Miflex and the third is a big Duelund JDM410 cap and has to be mounted off the PCB. There are definite differences alright. Give me a couple more days and I will report back.
Will this affect the choice of the other Elsinores and the Hamlets too? Absolutely! In fact I found myself surprised at the results I am clearly hearing. So will be back soon.
Joe, I'm looking forward to your report about your findings!
I have to admit, I'm a huge fan of Duelund. My Elsinore ULDs are about to celebrate their first anniversary and at the beginning of the year I treated them and myself to an upgrade of the crossovers. Originially I used the recommended components including the Audyn True Copper Max and your very high-quality PCBs.
For the (few) components in the direct signal path in particular, I decided to use the fine, handmade pieces from Duelund in Denmark again due to my always very positive experiences (CAST CU-SN 1.8uF capacitor & CAST 12AWG CU inductors). But I have also now resorted to components from Mundorf and partly also Duelund in the parallel-connected impedance correction elements and have completely dispensed with the use of electrolytic capacitors. Even though I know that the benefit is certainly doubtful, it just felt logical.
First of all I had to sit down and think about how the sometimes very large components would fit into the already finished housings. After a few days of pushing back and forth, I found an attractive placement that allows the cable runs to be as short as possible and yet avoids mutual influence of the coils as much as possible. As a result, the components for the two impedance correction elements are on the lower floor and the three main branches have found their place on the upper deck.
Then I went to my newly set up mini workshop in our narrow basement compartment to build the necessary construction parts out of wood.
Everything slowly took shape:
And finally:
The new crossovers have now completed their first almost 200 hours of break-in time and a sound classification is possible. It is not that easy to go into individual aspects, as the Elsinore have audibly improved in many areas. They now play even more maturely, more subtle and even more naturally. The fine and coarse dynamics have also increased again, the bass is even more graduated and contoured. All in all, a step that more than justified the investment in the high-quality crossover components in my opinion. Even though it was a fairly large investment, the sound gain paid off.
It is fascinating how well the Elsinore ULDs have grown with the crossover. Fortunately, everything still works seamlessly and there are no negative aspects of the new components.
All the best
Henning
I have to admit, I'm a huge fan of Duelund. My Elsinore ULDs are about to celebrate their first anniversary and at the beginning of the year I treated them and myself to an upgrade of the crossovers. Originially I used the recommended components including the Audyn True Copper Max and your very high-quality PCBs.
For the (few) components in the direct signal path in particular, I decided to use the fine, handmade pieces from Duelund in Denmark again due to my always very positive experiences (CAST CU-SN 1.8uF capacitor & CAST 12AWG CU inductors). But I have also now resorted to components from Mundorf and partly also Duelund in the parallel-connected impedance correction elements and have completely dispensed with the use of electrolytic capacitors. Even though I know that the benefit is certainly doubtful, it just felt logical.
First of all I had to sit down and think about how the sometimes very large components would fit into the already finished housings. After a few days of pushing back and forth, I found an attractive placement that allows the cable runs to be as short as possible and yet avoids mutual influence of the coils as much as possible. As a result, the components for the two impedance correction elements are on the lower floor and the three main branches have found their place on the upper deck.
Then I went to my newly set up mini workshop in our narrow basement compartment to build the necessary construction parts out of wood.
Everything slowly took shape:
And finally:
The new crossovers have now completed their first almost 200 hours of break-in time and a sound classification is possible. It is not that easy to go into individual aspects, as the Elsinore have audibly improved in many areas. They now play even more maturely, more subtle and even more naturally. The fine and coarse dynamics have also increased again, the bass is even more graduated and contoured. All in all, a step that more than justified the investment in the high-quality crossover components in my opinion. Even though it was a fairly large investment, the sound gain paid off.
It is fascinating how well the Elsinore ULDs have grown with the crossover. Fortunately, everything still works seamlessly and there are no negative aspects of the new components.
All the best
Henning
Fantastic!
Thanks for sharing your story. Yes, the "ULD" deserve the best crossover parts. The two most critical parts are L2 and C1. What is surprising how much C1 can influence the entire sound and not just in the treble. Yes, it even seems to make the bass better, but making it more kind of separate (separation) and the right amount of air around the bass note. What you are saying is tallying up, but right now I am dealing with the "NBAC" Elsinores and you can still get a real benefit. Maybe the "NBAC" is the poor man's ULD if you are willing to recognise it needs a fair bit more power than the "ULD" and basically double the power.
Right now I am listening to a Duelund capacitor that I gather this is one of their latest creation, but not the most expensive. It is said that this is made in their own Duelund factory and not by Jensen (Jensen is no more?).
1.8uF 600Vdc Duelund JDM Tinned Copper Foil Capacitor JDM-CuSn-410
Not all Duelund cap ranges has the 1.8uF value. Price wise this one is in the middle range of their series of caps. This is the 'tinned' version, which is more expensive than the non-tinned variation, £96.00 versus £130.00 for the tinned one I am listening to right now.
Because the "NBAC" still have external crossovers, it was easy to take out the True Copper Max (TCM) and slot in the Duelund, which a friend with "ULD" has got in from Hi Fi Collective in the UK. They are currently £130.00 each (the True Copper Max are £111.85). I also have a pair of Miflex (£111.23) on the way, due to be delivered tomorrow. So that is why I now can do that 3-way comparison.
So listening to the Duelund, I can also say that it is bettering the TCM in a way that has surprised me. The recent pair of 2-way that I designed (not DIY) already has the Miflex and they too impressed me greatly. I now feel that they too are better than the TCM, so almost certainly in this 3-way comparison the TCM will come last.
The TCM is a touch more forward and it is still a very good capacitor, but sorry, I have now heard two others that just betters it. Perspective, especially if you listen to a proper classic orchestra, the back of the stage is rendered so much better, space and also a certainly naturalness, and it sounds more correct. I am not a piano player, but for the majority of my life I have had a piano around and several family members play, my middle son is a piano teacher (here), so I know what a piano sounds like. The "NBAC" nails it!
Now which is better, in the "NBAC" as the test bed, the Duelund or the Miflex. The latter is a bit cheaper but not cheap, but it can be made to fit the Black PCB and so I hope that it comes up to Duelund's standard.
Once again, I am thrilled with what you have done to your "ULD" Elsinores.
Cheers, Joe
PS: BTW, back in 1980 I spent about four months in Denmark visiting family and also a trip to London and Oxford. But during that time, a friend introduced me to this guy that was into audio and I ended up spending quite some time with him during those months. Yes, his name was Steen Duelund. He has since passed away and Frederik Carøe has continued the work. I have had brief contact with Frederik a few times and I told him that I knew Steen before he did. 🙂
Joe,
Thanks for your impression on the Duelund JDM tinned copper compared with the TCM. I look forward to your impression on the Miflex in comparison. Since I listen extensively to classical music, the back of hall detail and piano attack is important to me, so your comments really help me.
Henning,
Your crossover execution is inspiring! I may ultimately do something similar, it is great to know that the ULD sound can be improved even further. Thanks for sharing!
David
Thanks for your impression on the Duelund JDM tinned copper compared with the TCM. I look forward to your impression on the Miflex in comparison. Since I listen extensively to classical music, the back of hall detail and piano attack is important to me, so your comments really help me.
Henning,
Your crossover execution is inspiring! I may ultimately do something similar, it is great to know that the ULD sound can be improved even further. Thanks for sharing!
David
The link above "here" does not work as the URL address was not complete, but this "here" it is. It is Beau's rendition of the Beethoven's "rocket" piece.
The piano that Beau is playing has an interesting history. It is basically new and is a very large Yamaha upright, it is almost a mini-Grand that is vertical. It is also quite expensive. It was damaged in transit and the owner rejected it and insurance paid up. The piano was then stored for five years and almost forgotten until Beau found it and asked "how much" and since it was dead stock, Beau was able to get it for $5000 Australian (around USD 3300 at the time). Of course this was only a fraction of the original price. The damage was entirely superficial and it was restored and since then has had several tunings and it is now part of the family.
Note that Beau has no notes, he is playing entirely from memory. No editing. That is some trick.
The piano that Beau is playing has an interesting history. It is basically new and is a very large Yamaha upright, it is almost a mini-Grand that is vertical. It is also quite expensive. It was damaged in transit and the owner rejected it and insurance paid up. The piano was then stored for five years and almost forgotten until Beau found it and asked "how much" and since it was dead stock, Beau was able to get it for $5000 Australian (around USD 3300 at the time). Of course this was only a fraction of the original price. The damage was entirely superficial and it was restored and since then has had several tunings and it is now part of the family.
Note that Beau has no notes, he is playing entirely from memory. No editing. That is some trick.
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Hi Scott, which series 1.8uF capacitor on the Tweeter are you using now in your MFC Elsinores?
DHL "delivery onboard" and the Miflex 1.8uF caps will be here any moment. Of the three caps being compared here, it is the most compact. It is clear the TCM will take third place. In my mind, the question is whether the Miflex is as good as the Duelund "Tinned Copper" 1.8uF caps that I am listening to right now and mightily impressed. There, I said it!
So it strikes me that maybe you are the one who could try it as you have the MFC there. I have the ULD and NBAC Elsinores here at the moment.
Joe:
When we built our (four pairs of) Elsinores, you were strongly recommending the Jantzen Z-Superior caps, so that's what we went with (we were trying to control costs and my ignorance about copper cap upgrades contributed as well). We splurged on big foil inductors in the important spots. In the past few years, I've added Cornell Dubilier 940C 3000V bypass caps everywhere, which added some sparkle, and replaced the tweeter resistors with Duelund CAST-graphite, which added depth and nuance to the upper frequencies. I'm watching the evaluations of replacement 1.8uF caps closely -- if there's a meaningful improvement, that upgrade will happen.
Now, not to be greedy or anything, but if you want to send me your rejected second choice for replacement copper caps, I promise to give them a fair chance.
Warm regards,
Scott
When we built our (four pairs of) Elsinores, you were strongly recommending the Jantzen Z-Superior caps, so that's what we went with (we were trying to control costs and my ignorance about copper cap upgrades contributed as well). We splurged on big foil inductors in the important spots. In the past few years, I've added Cornell Dubilier 940C 3000V bypass caps everywhere, which added some sparkle, and replaced the tweeter resistors with Duelund CAST-graphite, which added depth and nuance to the upper frequencies. I'm watching the evaluations of replacement 1.8uF caps closely -- if there's a meaningful improvement, that upgrade will happen.
Now, not to be greedy or anything, but if you want to send me your rejected second choice for replacement copper caps, I promise to give them a fair chance.
Warm regards,
Scott