The Degradation of Proper English

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#322
madis64 said:
Stating one's preferences in series does not make a discussion either 🙂
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First you say that you are not going to bother reading though all the previous posts.

Then you say that you plan to ignore some posts if you don't like their "style".

And then you don't tolerate disrespect because of your age.

But nowhere is there any comment on the subject of this thread, which is the degradation of grammar.

So, exactly what is purpose of your posts?
 
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#329
There are so many avenues here that the chances of any concensus were slim from the outset. Even if you carefully define every term (impossibly tedious) some readers will misinterpret your meaning, consciously or otherwise. The original complaint was (I think) about education. (There was/is a fad over here emphasising self-expression: 'Imposing rules/'right' and 'wrong' limit a child's natural development.' To an old trump like me, a promising idea taken to ludicrous extremes.)

Then, language as a means of communication, or as an art form? As long as poetry exists (albeit as a minority interest) is there really a problem?

Does sloppy thinking produce sloppy language or vice versa ?

Is social media partly to blame? Shouldn't enforced brevity result in increased precision?

Irritating mannerisms: I loathe "So......" preceeding every expert statement on air, and "Like" is similarly redundant. Fortunately these fads eventually die out and can be ignored, through gritted teeth.

As far as education is concerned, my only direct experience concerns my six-year old granddaughter: to a biased observer she is unselfish, articulate, and intensely curious, which promotes a positive feedback loop with her teachers. So if there's a problem with the younger generation, blame the parents.
 
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#331
classicalfan said:
She is 25 years old. A perfect example of just what I have been talking about.

And she attended an excellent private school where I would expect she was taught proper grammar.
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"You and me" = bad, "you and I = good" drilled in with the distinction between subjective and objective case left in the dust seems to be an American thing. I keep hearing it from (educated) American colleagues much older than her (not she), and I hear it in movie dialoges and song lyrics, too. English is a pioneer when it comes to getting rid of vestiges of declension, so it may be here to stay.

Now, "It's me" or "Mom and me went shopping" are (or at least were - long time since I was last to the UK) perfectly acceptable in British English. I recently saw a piece by a linguist influencer on youtube that I could not find again. He claimed that this was not only acceptable but he also had a name for it that I also failed to google just now. He said it was a vestige from French, similar to "C'est moi" or "Maman et moi sommes allées faire des courses". Made sense to me except I was left wondering if that came with the Normans or whether it was a more recent addition to French (after all, this does not exist in Latin, Italian nor German) that the British imported more recently.
 
#333
GeoffMillar said:
The only Latin I know is 'nil bastardum carborundum downum' and the graffiti from "Life of Brian".

Some private schools in Oz still teach it but I don't think it has many takers; even in my Year 12, some years ago, there were only seven students.

Geoff
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A centurion John Cleese would insist on " Noli illegitimi te carborundum!" One hundred times, or else.

(I'd no idea there were private schools in Oz. We were taught that 'Australian culture' was an oxymoron, at least until Barry, Germaine and Clive put us right.)
 
#334
Are private schools synonymous with culture?

You can get excellent education (including Latin and ancient Greek if you so wish) from state run schools in e.g. Germany. About 40% of university bound students still take 3 to 6 years of Latin. There are many reasons for this, from ambitious or misguided parents to the fact that it is often easier to obtain good grade in Latin than it is in French.

I wouldn't even dare to equate a Classics education with culture.
 
#336
capslock said:
Are private schools synonymous with culture?

You can get excellent education (including Latin and ancient Greek if you so wish) from state run schools in e.g. Germany. About 40% of university bound students still take 3 to 6 years of Latin. There are many reasons for this, from ambitious or misguided parents to the fact that it is often easier to obtain good grade in Latin than it is in French.

I wouldn't even dare to equate a Classics education with culture.
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Definitely not. Private schools are for wealthy snobbish parents who don't actually care what sort of education their children receives provided they can boast to their peers that they've been sent to one.

As it happens I studied Latin & French for 3 years at grammar school (i.e. not a private school) and can't say it did me any good.
 
#337
Randy Bassinga said:
Is this the natural state? Is prim and proper the forced state? What happens to ';civilised' when not 'policed'?

My observation as a taxi driver and regional roamer is that most forms of civilised that I encounter is a forced fake
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Congratulations, you were able to synthesize in just two lines centuries of philosophical reflections and millennia of spiritual acquisitions. 👍
Of course I'm very serious, and - for what it's worth - even admired.

However, being torn between heaven and earth is part of the human condition and, of course, it is not that the use of appropriate grammar will improve society, or that those you call "forced fake" are really fake, they live their own personal drama like anyone else.
Maybe a bit "forced", yes, since being virtuous is not automatic, but just a choice.
You have to choose to be virtuous, every time.

Randy Bassinga said:
What happens to ';civilised' when not 'policed'?
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There is an internal police, it is called moral law.

Also that is an excellent reflection of yours. 😉


All the above, IMHO.
 
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