Nice test, but again not a shred of indication why cables should have different sounds.
Even the worst combination had a drop in FR of 0.5dB or less at 10kHz where the JND of our auditory system is ca 0.7dB in the much more sensitive mid frequencies.
At 20kHz the worst combination had a drop of 1.5dB, but I challenge any of us old farts to hear 20kHz at all.
Hans
Why is this a surprise? Cables have L, C and R and the load at the other end is highly reactive and the amp Zoitbis not 0.
So, I fully expect there to be measurable differences that are 100% explained by basic engineering practice.
And indeed, normal humans, including some of the golden pinnae on this forum, will not hear 0.4 or 0.7 dB.
So, let’s stop all this bs about cables. It’s anon-issue.
So, I fully expect there to be measurable differences that are 100% explained by basic engineering practice.
And indeed, normal humans, including some of the golden pinnae on this forum, will not hear 0.4 or 0.7 dB.
So, let’s stop all this bs about cables. It’s anon-issue.
Nobody claimed there would be any surprise. In fact, I have said over and over again that ordinary physics would explain everything that exists. So, why do you ask the question, to set up a straw man?
Hans,
Did you read the rest of the articles at: https://www.edn.com/loudspeakers-effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables-part-6/
They seem to put all the physical effects in one set of articles. Other than that, I think we hear more than is predicted in some cases. Sure, none of us hear 20kHz, but there is a reason we are told to level match blind tests to within .1dB, don't you think? Also, when PMA reported DBT results of hearing effects of a single pole rolloff at 100kHz, it wasn't from him hearing 100kHz was it? It must have been from phase shift in the frequency range he could hear.
Instead of shrugging off physical causes one by one without much thought as to how they might interact together, and without much thought of what we probably can hear (verses probably can't hear), maybe we need to look harder at what evidence exists to understand how it is we hear something. The answer is almost certainly under out noses (or a bit back behind them).
Hi Mark,
I trust my ears and I fully agree with Bonsai that we should stop the cable (explain) discussions, they are non issues.
There are two independent issues: can we hear differences and can we explain those differences.
My personal opinion is resp. Yes and No and that’s it.
But I enjoy I the recent nostalgic information on leaking Rovers and cast iron blocks in rubber bumper MG’s as replacement engines.
The Americans were always very skillful to extract hi power from low cost low tech engines.
Hans
I trust my ears and I fully agree with Bonsai that we should stop the cable (explain) discussions, they are non issues.
There are two independent issues: can we hear differences and can we explain those differences.
My personal opinion is resp. Yes and No and that’s it.
But I enjoy I the recent nostalgic information on leaking Rovers and cast iron blocks in rubber bumper MG’s as replacement engines.
The Americans were always very skillful to extract hi power from low cost low tech engines.
Hans
Er komt meer bij kijken dan alleen haring 😉
The composer brought the notes to the conductor. Shows: we play here, we do not play here. There is a stain - we do not play. Here I wrapped the fish.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4d...75.1728866835.1592776708-614425370.1592776708
https://www.edn.com/loudspeakers-effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables-part-6/
The composer brought the notes to the conductor. Shows: we play here, we do not play here. There is a stain - we do not play. Here I wrapped the fish.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4d...75.1728866835.1592776708-614425370.1592776708
https://www.edn.com/loudspeakers-effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables-part-6/
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Audio wire is NOT a non-issue. It is important to those who pursue audio excellence. But around here, just having something that plays back music relatively comfortably seems to be all that is necessary.
Reading through the many, many posts here I can assure you I am the last person to create a 'straw man' of any sort, though I am not averse to stirring the pot to have a laugh.
OTOH, you seem quite quick to condemn someone like me telling everyone to calm down and get a grip. You're the one that's made outrageous claims about the audibility of DAC's for example and then there was the goop nonsense as well. Measurements please.
We have a completely scientific endeavour, i.e. the accurate reproduction of audio signals, corrupted by claims that have never stood up to serious scrutiny on this thread and I might add across the industry.
Its no wonder most people treat those that practice our vocation with contempt.
Oh john please.
Its got to conduct electrons (you know, those little things that whizz along and generate a field) and its got to be sized and characterized for the job.
Period.
You know that and I know that, but there are other people ... I keep thinking of some guy on Another Forum, discussing commercially available examples of <This Product>, and said something to the effect "I'm a scientist, I know how to do comparison tests." I asked him if he'd measured any of the R, L or C of the <device>. He said no, he wasn't into that, he didn't know that EE stuff.
That's the point I regret not pushing, asking what his scientific specialty was. If it was chemistry, did he think someone could make good chemistry tests without knowing what elements were in substances, nor how the elements combine, nor knew the basics of balancing chemical equations? Because that's what he was doing with <These Devices>. His only "measurements" were physical appearance and the price of these things, and those were the only things he could base a hypothesis on regarding how one might sound different from another, or which one he thinks might "sound better."
Or he was full of crap in his claim to be a scientist. I wasn't even sure I could come to that conclusion, I've seen people who are good at compartmentalizing, doing perfectly good work in one area but go off the rails in another.
That would normally end the argument but not the case with boutique audio business. They come up with a bogeyman of "not everything we hear can be measured" and when asked for example, they either go silent or put up anther bogeyman.
"Junior" scientist type here:
1.) It's difficult to jump out of "I'm smart/knowledgeable in my domain of expertise I should be smart/knowledgeable there too"-mode. That goes for all of humanity (at least in my observation, and I'm not alone there), but it's especially hard when brought through most academic pipelines. There's always going to be the "smartest person in the room" folks (and, well, guilty as charged many a time). This thread brings this out in a lot of folks. 😀
2.) The more and more multidisciplinary we've become (almost every, even moderate, research endeavor now is both a scientific question and an engineering/instrumentation project), which "lerns you real good" where your domain of expertise comes to an immediate and precipitous end. It's also pretty awesome to gain insights into other people's really cool subjects, if only at a high-level lay person.
3.) Scientific method doesn't change across disciplines, even if the methodology looks different. But as always, what you don't know can and will bit you in the behind. Sounds like this was a major factor in your story.
Outrageous, huh? How about this taken from a book except published as an article in EDN:
"Perhaps nothing highlights the concept of component matching quite so easily as carefully listening to the performance of digital-to-analogue converters (DACs). The subtle, or even not-so-subtle, differences between better quality DACs will be revealed by a high resolution monitor system in a good listening room.
However, it is possible to substitute loudspeakers of progressively lesser quality of reproduction, and to continue to repeat the tests until no difference can be heard between the different DACs. To a lesser degree, the same effect may be noticed when changing amplifiers or loudspeaker cables."
I guess we now know why you guys can't hear any differences between dacs: Your systems are CRAP.
By the way, one of the authors of the above quoted article has a Ph.D in engineering and is a professor: Dr Keith Holland | Engineering | University of Southampton
Excerpt taken from: https://www.edn.com/loudspeakers-effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables-part-6/
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Surprised Matt didn’t jump on that one! You know..... ‘better’ and all, so is it more expensive, is that why it’s better? 😀