I realise the importance of cutting down unwanted magnetic fields & structural resonances, here is a screenshot of the full item from the Mend it Mark video.
Note the copper clad PCD boards. Apparently some were double sided & others were single sided. Obviously this is for shielding, as its wired to a star ground (apparently). I would have used brass risers/standoffs as stronger & more stable for the PCB boards. Also if you're that worried about shielding on a £25K item why not shield the sides, so all you see a copper clad "cube" around each set of PCB modules (3 cages)??
Like I say basic construction is seriously lacking for the price point! I've seen way better stuff built by "one man bands" for a fraction of the price..let alone better mass produced stuff!.....(construction, build quality, not talking about circuit design as I don't know enough on it)
I'll say it again, despite the ******* in the build quality the Master groove is a very good sounding phonostage. He might be a **** builder, but Tom's got good ears.
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Frequently see those videos of audio companies showcasing their products and production facilities. The Wilson one seen recently was well done and a strong advertisement for their speakers even though I am not, at all, a fan.
One of the companies that produces grounding boxes produced an advertisement/production video where they did not show any of their box content AND spent a lot of time stressing how their product could not be opened along with all the terrible things that would happen should you do so (the usual warranty and repair threats). Their emphasis on the extreme steps they took to keep anyone from being able to open their boxes became comical after a bit.
Whenever I see this in a product, I walk away immediately.
Mark's video along with the analysis above just presented shows why. If a company is disinclined to show its specific parts and design, and allow specialists to provide analysis, then there are all sorts of tomfoolery that can be taking place. And since you can't investigate the specifics, there is no way to know what kind of performance issues might arise and what kind of repair issues might be needed.
Now about price.
It's true that a manufacturer can charge whatever they like. It's also true that in certain luxury markets (watches, fine wine, etc.) a certain premium quality level demands ridiculous prices. In the audiophile world, high-end pricing structures started in the 1990s and have continued to increase. One justification for what seems to be ridiculous prices (say 25,000 pounds for a phono pre) is that the last little bit of audio excellence is extremely expensive -- and not related to pricing norms seen elsewhere in the industry.
This would be true if it were not possible to get the same level of performance from DIY activity. But since you can build superb amps, speakers, and, yes, phono pres, that challenge the best retail offerings, that "last little bit" argument is weakened. As shown by this thread, the content of the Mastergroove phono pre is modest and could be replicated for hundreds of dollars.
So, no wonder that Evans is pursuing copyright obfuscation. It's in his best interests to keep his boxes closed and his repairs expensive and mysterious. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
One of the companies that produces grounding boxes produced an advertisement/production video where they did not show any of their box content AND spent a lot of time stressing how their product could not be opened along with all the terrible things that would happen should you do so (the usual warranty and repair threats). Their emphasis on the extreme steps they took to keep anyone from being able to open their boxes became comical after a bit.
Whenever I see this in a product, I walk away immediately.
Mark's video along with the analysis above just presented shows why. If a company is disinclined to show its specific parts and design, and allow specialists to provide analysis, then there are all sorts of tomfoolery that can be taking place. And since you can't investigate the specifics, there is no way to know what kind of performance issues might arise and what kind of repair issues might be needed.
Now about price.
It's true that a manufacturer can charge whatever they like. It's also true that in certain luxury markets (watches, fine wine, etc.) a certain premium quality level demands ridiculous prices. In the audiophile world, high-end pricing structures started in the 1990s and have continued to increase. One justification for what seems to be ridiculous prices (say 25,000 pounds for a phono pre) is that the last little bit of audio excellence is extremely expensive -- and not related to pricing norms seen elsewhere in the industry.
This would be true if it were not possible to get the same level of performance from DIY activity. But since you can build superb amps, speakers, and, yes, phono pres, that challenge the best retail offerings, that "last little bit" argument is weakened. As shown by this thread, the content of the Mastergroove phono pre is modest and could be replicated for hundreds of dollars.
So, no wonder that Evans is pursuing copyright obfuscation. It's in his best interests to keep his boxes closed and his repairs expensive and mysterious. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
They break when tightened, which means they cannot be tightened enough for the prescribed pressure. In all respects about the worst way you can do this. This clearly indicates that at least in this area he doesn't have a clue. Or doesn't give a hoot.
Jan
This provides zero shielding, not even for RF. It's useless, although some people may be impressed by the sight.
Jan
@jan.didden
previous editions of these regulators didn't use heatsinks so perhaps the need for heatsinking on these is marginal.
previous editions of these regulators didn't use heatsinks so perhaps the need for heatsinking on these is marginal.
I had wondered as its just the top & bottom & not a "wall" wrapped around the PCB boards.....maybe its a "secret sauce" antennae or heatsink to remove unwanted electrons?... 🤔 ......🤐
Put it this way for £25k I'd expect better.....
You mean he knowingly used plastic screws knowing that they impair heatsinking, because he didn't really need the heatsinking?
Eyewash?
Or maybe it allowed him the suggestion that the plastic screws instead of steel doesn't kill the music?
Maybe this is a good occasion for ROFLMAO if I may be so bold 😎
Jan
sure, maybe it's eye candy. I just offered that evidently it wasn't needed before.
the only way to find out is to ask Tom Evans (though I suspect we all have burnt that bridge here)
the only way to find out is to ask Tom Evans (though I suspect we all have burnt that bridge here)
Yes, very hard to realize that careful sprinkling of akin to "Alien" technology in the original TE! 😂
This thread has taken on a life of its own and. as entertaining as it is, it seems to me that the real issue has gotten lost in the noise. It's really not about how expensive the Tom Evans' Mastergroove preamp is, how good (or badly) it is designed and performs, or how well (or poorly) it is constructed. The real issue is that Tom Evans abused the copyright system to have a review/video taken down that he didn't think was flattering enough. This speaks to the ethics of the company and the person running it.
I'm glad that I still have the right to choose who I do business with, and those decisions sometimes come down to an assessment of the company and its executives. Even if I had $25,000 to spend on a phono preamp, and even if its design and construction were superb, I wouldn't buy anything from this company. To me, character matters.
Tom Evans isn't the first and certainly won't be the last to bully someone who dares not to tell him how great he and his products are. But this behavior usually backfires spectacularly. For another recent example, just Google "dcs goldensound." In that case, the CEO of dCS eventually ran away with his tail between his legs, offering a lame apology that placed all of the blame for the debacle on his VP of Sales, but that was too little, too late in my opinion. The company and its executives had already shown everyone who they really are.
It will be interesting to see how this eventually plays out. I would hope that YouTube would do the right thing and reverse the copyright strike but that too would require a display of integrity and courage. Sadly, these attributes seem to be in short supply these days.
I'm glad that I still have the right to choose who I do business with, and those decisions sometimes come down to an assessment of the company and its executives. Even if I had $25,000 to spend on a phono preamp, and even if its design and construction were superb, I wouldn't buy anything from this company. To me, character matters.
Tom Evans isn't the first and certainly won't be the last to bully someone who dares not to tell him how great he and his products are. But this behavior usually backfires spectacularly. For another recent example, just Google "dcs goldensound." In that case, the CEO of dCS eventually ran away with his tail between his legs, offering a lame apology that placed all of the blame for the debacle on his VP of Sales, but that was too little, too late in my opinion. The company and its executives had already shown everyone who they really are.
It will be interesting to see how this eventually plays out. I would hope that YouTube would do the right thing and reverse the copyright strike but that too would require a display of integrity and courage. Sadly, these attributes seem to be in short supply these days.
Jan, those are likely not just run of the mill plastic screws, but cryotreated hardware recovered from alien spacecraft stashed on subterranean caverns below Groom Lake.
All kidding aside, for those who’ve not yet spelunked the purple prose from Mr Evans’ description of the model in question, a brief excerpt from his website:
“Our most sophisticated internal PSU design with a far more complexed front end gain stage, has over 50% less signal distortion than the already reference MasterGroove model. This provides the greatest dynamic range of any phono stage in the World by an incredible margin. The very ethos of this is the resolution of more detail than was ever thought possible from any HiFi medium. A set of measurements so in advance of the competition that it will be more akin to testing an advanced Alien technology than measuring a mere electronic device.”
But let’s be fair, he has some very basic phono pre-amps starting at £600, and this little bespoke beauty is estimated @ £1,200. Why “estimated” though?
All kidding aside, for those who’ve not yet spelunked the purple prose from Mr Evans’ description of the model in question, a brief excerpt from his website:
“Our most sophisticated internal PSU design with a far more complexed front end gain stage, has over 50% less signal distortion than the already reference MasterGroove model. This provides the greatest dynamic range of any phono stage in the World by an incredible margin. The very ethos of this is the resolution of more detail than was ever thought possible from any HiFi medium. A set of measurements so in advance of the competition that it will be more akin to testing an advanced Alien technology than measuring a mere electronic device.”
But let’s be fair, he has some very basic phono pre-amps starting at £600, and this little bespoke beauty is estimated @ £1,200. Why “estimated” though?
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I agree. But the other two antagonists in this story (I don't think there is a protagonist) haven't been completely or helpfully upfront either.
Mark wasn't being completely straight or straightforward with the story of how the unit came to him and what was said/ done before it got to him.
Louis in his video was disingenuous about the measured performance and quality of the regulators -- and therefore the unit itself -- in his video though at least he seemed to have done a fair bit of investigation into the backstory.
And since the preamp was repaired this is clearly not a "right to repair" story. TEAD offered to repair the unit but the asking price was too high for the owner who directed it to be sent to Mark for repair... which it was.
not at all. but it's not entirely clear what Tom Evans did or didn't do. we haven't heard from him. we have Mark and Louis on video.
and let's not forget the owner who very likely threw away the crate the preamp came in and sent it through the mails inadequately packed and instigated this whole rigamarole. but that's just speculation too eh.
and let's not forget the owner who very likely threw away the crate the preamp came in and sent it through the mails inadequately packed and instigated this whole rigamarole. but that's just speculation too eh.
Well, you are obviously a fan of Tom Evans and I am not, so why don't we just leave it at that. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind.
No, I'm not, actually. For me, after following his career for quite a few years, the jury is still out.
I thought his phono stages and preamp looked very much like the designers I regard highly might build -- particularly the use of the regulators and the reviews mirrored what I would expect to have achieved with Super Regulators and well-crafted circuits by Wayne and Nelson, Richard, Walt and Jan.
I looked askance at the rudimentary Faraday cage and wonder how the heck could that work especially for an MC preamp.
The insides of the MasterGroove didn't surprise me... he's been using these techniques for years. It's a cottage industry build. He's consistent.
But I haven't swallowed wholesale what Mark and Louis have been saying either. No one is wearing a white hat here.
I thought his phono stages and preamp looked very much like the designers I regard highly might build -- particularly the use of the regulators and the reviews mirrored what I would expect to have achieved with Super Regulators and well-crafted circuits by Wayne and Nelson, Richard, Walt and Jan.
I looked askance at the rudimentary Faraday cage and wonder how the heck could that work especially for an MC preamp.
The insides of the MasterGroove didn't surprise me... he's been using these techniques for years. It's a cottage industry build. He's consistent.
But I haven't swallowed wholesale what Mark and Louis have been saying either. No one is wearing a white hat here.
We only can guess about Evan’s motivation. My guess is that Mark accurately determined the Mastergroove’s circuit schematics. Revealing the ‘secret sauce’ which they so obviously, and perhaps rightly, feel separates them from their competitors. Causing something of a panic inside the Tom Evans co. That sort of view has long typified very high-end audio companies.
Did I incorrectly hear that the unit was shipped by TEAD to Mark after the customer refused what he felt to be an exorbitant quote for repair by the manufacturer, with essentially the dare that “you won’t be able to fix it”?
Then of course after some reverse engineering resulting in sketching his own schematic for the section he guessed most at fault, he did exactly that.
What’s still not exactly clear to me is whose copyright resulted in the strike, as I don’t think Evans ever released his circuit diagrams, but Mark did sketch some out to explain his diagnostic process. The manuals and printed diagrams that Mark briefly flashed were for one of the pieces Techtronix test gear from his extensive collection, and I believe some 40 year old Burr Brown application notes; both of which are public domain, are they not?
As for the Streisand effect, if he was made aware of that quote, Tom might well postulate “ she might not be exactly my cup of tea, but damn she could sing, so what’s the problem?”
Then enter honey badger Louis, and things were guaranteed to get spicy.
Then of course after some reverse engineering resulting in sketching his own schematic for the section he guessed most at fault, he did exactly that.
What’s still not exactly clear to me is whose copyright resulted in the strike, as I don’t think Evans ever released his circuit diagrams, but Mark did sketch some out to explain his diagnostic process. The manuals and printed diagrams that Mark briefly flashed were for one of the pieces Techtronix test gear from his extensive collection, and I believe some 40 year old Burr Brown application notes; both of which are public domain, are they not?
As for the Streisand effect, if he was made aware of that quote, Tom might well postulate “ she might not be exactly my cup of tea, but damn she could sing, so what’s the problem?”
Then enter honey badger Louis, and things were guaranteed to get spicy.
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