Still waiting for your proof that its noisy. Please post measurements, yours or someone else data.
Mark specifically mentions that its paralleling multiple opamps to achieve low noise. As shown in application note from opamp chip manufacturer. Mark even shows mathematical calculation how much lower noise is by paralleling. Not to mention series of power regulators to feed the multiple opamps. None of it new or patentable, just low noise circuitry.
I find that sum hard to justify, without any samples of "what you get"; that's way above usual Patreon rates.
Are you suggesting that potential buyers shouldn't be shown whats inside before they buy an item they would regret if it is revealed whats inside?
How many people do you think buy a German luxury car (or any vehicle) and never look under the hood before signing the finance contract or handing over the cheque. Should they have an understanding of combustion engines or whether the alternator is conveniently accessible for their future mechanic?
I missed the original video by "Mend it Mark", but I have watched some of his older videos.....unfortunately I don't have all his gear, & neither do I have all his expertise, but I do like to "have a go" with logic & research applied...
I first saw this "debate" on Rossman's video on Youtube "frontpage", & thanks to whoever posted the link in this thread to the internet archive of the original video.
Knowing something about copyright & law here in the UK, the only thing that I think that Tom Evens has any legal chance on is that Mend it Mark produced a nice printed "service manual" full of pages of circuit block drawing & component values from viewing/tracing out the actual circuits. This could be construed as breaking "commercial confidentiality" & "intellectual property".
Now for Mend it Marks defence he would have to prove whether those circuits were "special" to Tom Evans, or if they were well known circuit designs (freely available to the public) with common values for the components. Basically did Mend it Mark reveal in his video anything that could be construed as a "secret sauce"?
Leaving all of that aside, I was astounded, but not totally surprised (as its ultra high end audio which is prone to this), at the internal fabrication for the price point:-
I first saw this "debate" on Rossman's video on Youtube "frontpage", & thanks to whoever posted the link in this thread to the internet archive of the original video.
Knowing something about copyright & law here in the UK, the only thing that I think that Tom Evens has any legal chance on is that Mend it Mark produced a nice printed "service manual" full of pages of circuit block drawing & component values from viewing/tracing out the actual circuits. This could be construed as breaking "commercial confidentiality" & "intellectual property".
Now for Mend it Marks defence he would have to prove whether those circuits were "special" to Tom Evans, or if they were well known circuit designs (freely available to the public) with common values for the components. Basically did Mend it Mark reveal in his video anything that could be construed as a "secret sauce"?
Leaving all of that aside, I was astounded, but not totally surprised (as its ultra high end audio which is prone to this), at the internal fabrication for the price point:-
- What appears to be random PCB board offcuts, some double sided others single sided for the "shielding".
- Plastic stand offs. The brass ones that I use in computer builds are cheap, but way stronger & better looking.
- Thin cheap internal wiring. The silicon jacket OFC test instrument grade wiring that I used in my cross-over build is way better & dirt cheap!
- Plastic bolts to secure the chips sets etc to the heatsinks...At least Avondale Audio use stainless steel bolts!!
- Rubbish PCB board to board thin pins for the stacked boards! Siemens in their HVAC controllers use gold plated ones, I know I had to fix mine!
Not sure what you are saying. What are you saying? Are you saying that its alright to purchase a German luxury car and find out after you signed the check that it has no engine and is equipped with bicycle pedals on your wife's side connected to the rear wheels, and that's ok?
There always exists a reasonable level of expectation of goods purchased, notwithstanding the legitimacy or completeness of claims made being reasonable, complete or otherwise. Certainly for a German luxury car it isn't just the ability to get from point a to point b. Sonics isn't all that matters to many. I doubt many would find it reasonable in meeting their expectations after shelling £25,000 for a phono preamp, to find out it is constructed in such an amateuirish manner. You can purchase a better built car for that price. Okay... maybe one with those extra moped pedals on your wife's side.
I seeeee. You're a listen-to-the-price-tagger. That reminds me of a friend discussing a pick-em-up's virtues with an acquaintance, who said "Who cares about the suspension, look how big it is!"
Here:
$143,892: Lovely.
$27,856: Hateful.
$649,999: MAGNIFICENT!
And what, pray tell, does "hateful" sound like? Is it a problem (which the Kef does not have and the Wilson does) in the midrange, or overaccentuated bass (the classic Wilson signature), or treble rendered shrill by a messy waterfall response, which the Wilson has in spades? Do please be specific, because if you cannot detail reasons beyond "I DONT YIKE IIIIIIT" I shall mock you from a height and call you Michael Fremer which, believe me, is not a compliment.
I have the right to point & laugh because I've proved my engineering for decades and no internet price tag sniffing schmuck has the right to tell me otherwise. If exposure of a cack-handed "statement product" kills an overpriced cash cow, GOOD. Survival of the fittest and maybe Evans will find a line of work more honest than pandering to audiophools.
As regards the treacherous waters of trying to reconcile subjective impressions to objective measurements - or even what constitutes the latter, as Borresen has chosen to argue with Erin about - I have to smile over the thought of getting a Klippel NFS of the WAMM Master Chronosonic.
Gotta say that I quite enjoyed Mark’s recent video on copyright “see, this is my arm drawing part of the schematic, and gee, but doesn’t it look a lot like the Burr Brown application notes from 1984?”
Gotta say that I quite enjoyed Mark’s recent video on copyright “see, this is my arm drawing part of the schematic, and gee, but doesn’t it look a lot like the Burr Brown application notes from 1984?”
Basic construction fails on the Tom Evans £25K Mastergroove...
Photo below is a screenshot from the original Mend it Mark video...note the black painted heatsink with the IC chips fixed using plastic screws & the very thin cables...it all just looks shoddy for £25k..
Photo below is a screenshot from the Avondale Audio Facebook page. Much neater build of the circuit, nice thicker heatsink black anodised, & IC chips fixed using stainless steel bolts. (Yes the circuit is for an amp) Irrespective of your like or dislike for what Avondale does to Naim amps, I follow them as I like the design & build quality of their circuits. Not only that but he is totally open about his designs, no sanding off the ID marks on components, etc., etc, & bare in mind he is in a much cheaper price point (by a factor of 8 to 10) than the Tom Evans build!
Avondale Audio amp, note the nice easy to remove spade connectors for the thicker cables..nice & easy to build & repair in the future......just better build qualities......(image from Avondale Audio Facebook page)
Photo below is a screenshot from the original Mend it Mark video...note the black painted heatsink with the IC chips fixed using plastic screws & the very thin cables...it all just looks shoddy for £25k..
Photo below is a screenshot from the Avondale Audio Facebook page. Much neater build of the circuit, nice thicker heatsink black anodised, & IC chips fixed using stainless steel bolts. (Yes the circuit is for an amp) Irrespective of your like or dislike for what Avondale does to Naim amps, I follow them as I like the design & build quality of their circuits. Not only that but he is totally open about his designs, no sanding off the ID marks on components, etc., etc, & bare in mind he is in a much cheaper price point (by a factor of 8 to 10) than the Tom Evans build!
Avondale Audio amp, note the nice easy to remove spade connectors for the thicker cables..nice & easy to build & repair in the future......just better build qualities......(image from Avondale Audio Facebook page)
How hard can it be to draw a schematic by looking at the board? Looks like a job for a couple of hours, complete with appropriate DC voltage measurements. Add an hour for a working simulation.
What I find intriguing about the Mastergroove is that from an electronics perspective, the circuits are nothing unique. Utilizing op-amps for all gain stages, and in mostly common configurations, save one obscure circuit taken from a 1987 Analog Devices App Note. In other words, there are no apparent unique innovations by the Tom Evans co. Yet, published Mastergroove reviews (take them for whatever they’re worth) consistently speak to how unusually realistic the reproduction sounds. Surpassing that of tubes. That is what intrigues me. I have no idea whether I would agree about the reproduction character, not having heard the Mastergroove, or any other of Tom Evan’s products. Perhaps, I would disagree. Still, the lure to experiment remains since the circuits themselves are so easy to physically realize, if not to realize identically.
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@chrisb ......haha.........
In all seriousness I know a bit of UK Law & copyright, contract etc, done stuff in Court here in UK....
Like I said in my post further above the only claim that Tom Evans could have is due to Mark showing that nice printed "service manual" he did (on the computer off screen) with all the circuits drawn out with component values etc....that could be construed as intellectual property/commercial confidentiality etc.....the above photo does not show the circuit details...However if he wants to get "stroppy" about it, how come a smaller UK company puts out full photos & details of their designs on the web??.....Just shows he's got masses to hide!......
In all seriousness I know a bit of UK Law & copyright, contract etc, done stuff in Court here in UK....
Like I said in my post further above the only claim that Tom Evans could have is due to Mark showing that nice printed "service manual" he did (on the computer off screen) with all the circuits drawn out with component values etc....that could be construed as intellectual property/commercial confidentiality etc.....the above photo does not show the circuit details...However if he wants to get "stroppy" about it, how come a smaller UK company puts out full photos & details of their designs on the web??.....Just shows he's got masses to hide!......
Whilst I don't have the technical expertise to tell WTF the circuits are (beyond my electronics level).....if the circuits are all basic & their designs are already out there in public...then the only legal argument that Tom Evans has is that Mark has revealed to the world that there is no "secret sauce" to the £25k chunk of electronics.....
The "secret sauce" is that there is NO "secret sauce".....???.......🤔..........🤐.
You probably do not realise, but the plastic clips, nylon standoffs, specific wire types, acrylic casing, etc are not there to save money. No idea if this device sounds any good, but the general design principles indicate a designer with listening skills and abilities - something exceedingly uncommon within the diy-er fraternity.
Even the wretched tantalums are there in a pursuit for a specific signature, albeit not one i much enjoy.
It's exactly how i feel about the Blades. The pity is many of the old KEFs were actually quite enjoyable.
Yes. What is also interesting is the numbers of TO220 packages being bolted on to heatsinks with plastic bolts. How hot can they be getting if plastic bolts are an option? Plastic bolts easily break in the tightening. Who uses plastic bolts for that function? And how much current is being drawn by the opamps to warrant that many TO220 packages on heat sinks? What is the load?
To be clear, I don't have anything against or for tantalums necessarily, even though I haven't used them in seemingly 20 years. Recently it is all DC servo's that allows the use of lower value COG/NPO's or teflons. This doesn't make COG's or teflon's necessarily good either, rather the mere existence of capacitance in a network can deteriorate the sonics.
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