It's nice that GZ goes that low in quantity.
Has anyone considered RTI? From a cursory scan I notice many contributors are in the US. Wouldn't this simplify distribution and minimize cost?
Also, in the US there's media mail... which provides huge shipping savings. I don't believe that exists in Europe?
Would be nice to get a quote there as well for comparison's sake.
I'm unfortunately 4.24 light years away, so i'm screwed either way ;-)
Has anyone considered RTI? From a cursory scan I notice many contributors are in the US. Wouldn't this simplify distribution and minimize cost?
Also, in the US there's media mail... which provides huge shipping savings. I don't believe that exists in Europe?
Would be nice to get a quote there as well for comparison's sake.
I'm unfortunately 4.24 light years away, so i'm screwed either way ;-)
Time for the project to take proper legal advice, methinks. And who exactly is 'we', for example ? The issue of product or public liability arising from use might or might be waivable, or might depend on specific text I suppose..... and whose law applies........? It needs answers, and drafting.
Plausible scenario: someone plays the f sweep and fries expensive speakers/heaphones, and/or claims hearing damage. Especially the dog. Just one of a million ways, and if we had true genius we might think of half.
The GNU might protect copyright of the product, but who would/could care about enforcing it? And exactly who owns the legal title to the product?
If it looks like a duck and quacks...............
That's a legal question, but I'd guess it depends on whether it's offered for sale and someone buys it. Whatever legal rights and liabilities follow on might depend on national laws I suppose.
Why pay attention to 4 colour cover artwork otherwise..........?
I think that might be different here, because a pcb 'product' is not complete and can't be used (or abused) at all without expert application by skilled people. Nevertheless, if a group-buy pcb is somehow unsafe, exactly who would be liable?
It's both, but mostly the former. Concern is in case by participating or contributing one might unwittingly incur liabilities. For example, by accidentally forming a legal entity, such as an informal association......?
Seperately, personally I don't mind being philanthropic about permissions for use of original content so long as it's not for commercial use.
So I think it's important to understand how the project is funded and what happens to profit/loss, and apparently that isn't known here. Which also needs to be resolved, IMO.
Such questions are surely only reasonable, and IMO sensible.
LD
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This may or may not be useful to this project, but some in this thread would probably find it interesting. I wonder exactly how much, if at all, (aside from digital vs tape masters) the process has changed since 1980 when this article was published in Audio magazine:
" ... How Vinyl Records Are Made (Audio, June 1980) ..."
How Vinyl Records Are Made (June 1980)
" ... How Vinyl Records Are Made (Audio, June 1980) ..."
How Vinyl Records Are Made (June 1980)
The quote we got from their North American branch was for 200 disks. The quote direct from Europe was for 275, which was a good deal cheaper than the 200 quote. Between those two, it would still work out cheaper to ship a batch from Europe to the US, than to have them made in Canada.
Not as far as I know. There was a call for people to suggest mastering houses, so far only 2 people have. We have two quotes from GZ so far. I don't mind getting more quotes, if someone will supply names of the facilities. I've looked at Saltmine mastering in the US, as the owner is a frequent contributor on mastering forums. He charges $180 a side for a flat cut. I don't think he has pressing facilities.
Yes, about $3.50 in the US for media mail. It's the way to go.
Copyright is complicated issue. For individual private group buy such as this I suppose copyright is not needed. But to discourage one can put a warning though. I am not technically inclined but will there be any unique tests which needs to be copyrighted? I suppose the theory was always there we are only making special tests for it. Can the manufacturer have the copyright and give discount to diyAudio FIRST group buy members and in future made to sell ONLY through Diyaudio ? One can mention names on vinyl jacket the contributors to the making of vinyl. Making it copyrighted will increase the cost isn't it. Find some way so as copyright is with some establishment. lets say DiyAudio (?)
if that is sorted out will this be right process ?
1) First decide the cost of vinyl. i.e. sale price
2) Choose Volunteers to do the job.
3) Interest check of prospective buyers.
4) If enough buyers proceed to arrange finances by collecting money. This can be tricky see end of the post.
5) Disclaimer / consent in a webpage by the buyer while commiting to buy of possible mishandling of tests and so on.
6) No refund and no return since this will be no profit no loss group buy. Returning and refunding will be a hastle. Right ?
Having taken part in such unique vinyl group by (see here) I will post some problems that occurred in that group buy.
1) Some people first agreed and after unexpected delays or some individual reasons they backed off.
2) Some didn't paid money.
3) Some are pursuaded repeatedly to deposit money as soon as possible.
4) In shipping some vinyls were damaged.
Regards.
if that is sorted out will this be right process ?
1) First decide the cost of vinyl. i.e. sale price
2) Choose Volunteers to do the job.
3) Interest check of prospective buyers.
4) If enough buyers proceed to arrange finances by collecting money. This can be tricky see end of the post.
5) Disclaimer / consent in a webpage by the buyer while commiting to buy of possible mishandling of tests and so on.
6) No refund and no return since this will be no profit no loss group buy. Returning and refunding will be a hastle. Right ?
Having taken part in such unique vinyl group by (see here) I will post some problems that occurred in that group buy.
1) Some people first agreed and after unexpected delays or some individual reasons they backed off.
2) Some didn't paid money.
3) Some are pursuaded repeatedly to deposit money as soon as possible.
4) In shipping some vinyls were damaged.
Regards.
Isn't it better to choose on the basis of technical capability and empathy to cut a test record, rather than cost or shipping convenience ? Assuming it's a small quantity run?
AFAIK, the matter of record centering still isn't resolved: as yet there's no way of getting the record pressed to required tolerance ? Can any mastering/pressing houses help with this?
LD
I think sign up should be handled through the usual GB arrangement here. Note also that you have to grant permission to each and every participant in order for them to sign up in google sheets. I'm not comfortable putting my personal contact information there either, so if this is the way we are proceeding I will not participate further.
The drive contents are public and open for editing to all. I’m not sure what you experienced?
I’ve seen signup forms similar to this here, like with Teabag’s signups for the Salas stuff... I was not aware it was “bad form”.
My goal was to gauge interest for quantity to get a better idea of total cost per unit and shipping, not official.
I was simply trying to be helpful. If you’d like to spearhead an alternative that’s better suited and more amenable to everyone, by all means go for it.
The amount of colors are irrelevant ;-)
My posts regarding unwillingness to knowingly use copyrighted material without consent or license is simply an ethical requirement of my own. It’s in bad taste.... Treat others the way you’d like to be treated.
Given this, getting rights to reproduce can be expensive to do ethically, so I was attempting to guide the conversation toward free solutions. Since maybe some were not familiar of how this process works, I was just trying to shed some light.
Do I think based upon my experience anyone would take the time and money to sue if we did?Absolutely, positively not. Legal action is invariably a calculation of return- $$$$$$. No money? No action.. As a community project, spread over the globe, there’s no assets or profits to go after and no defined jurisdiction in which to even file.
For 300 LPs shared amongst enthusiasts? No freakin way. Their legal team would spend about 7 seconds laughing at the proposition.
But, might someone get a cease and desist letter written up by an intern to ruffle a few feathers and shame us a bit? Sure.
Is that something I want to avoid on ethical grounds? Yes.
Is it something that I think has actual legal ramifications? No.
Do I think the same applies for the record contents and the possible scenarios you described? Yes.
Then you haven't understood. It's not about copyright, it's about liabilties. And yes, it seriously matters and apparently needs resolving.
LD
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So far, that has been the process. We have not chosen on the basis of price, but on technical ability and willingness to undertake the project. If anyone knows of a mastering house to recommend, please do so.
No it isn't resolved, but not for lack of trying. No one we've contacted has been willing to provide much information on this. This may be the hardest part of the task. Judging by gripes about other test LPs, this is not a simple problem.
There have been some hardware solutions proposed to an off center hole. So far no software ideas, except perhaps for the notch filter used in the speed thread.
I was worried about this and bothered two members via PM to get some clarification - unfortunately i don't know how to interpret the answer i got.
Normally Group Buys are run by one person with a list of those interested posted in the thread. Just the user name and number of items wanted. Then the details are handled via PM. That has worked well in the past. There are other ways to do it, via Kickstarter or simply thru PayPal, for example.
I tried signing in using my Google account which it insisted on, and then it stated that I needed your permission to edit it, even to add myself. I just don't think having email addresses publicly accessible is a good idea.
Attachments
I understand what you are saying.
However, if we are to discuss such a wide range of legal issues you have to clarify your statements some more. Liability is a broad concept. One can have liabilities regarding copyright, for example.
Contributors liability can be in the form of knowingly infringing copyright. Saying it’s not about one thing, but about another in this context creates confusion.
This is the type of liability I was specifically addressing.
However to address your other areas of discomfort:
Regarding liability from damages and defects, a well-written “use at own risk” and “as-is, without warrantee” disclaimer absolving all involved parties of claims of “negligence, defects or damages” should cover most states and countries. Also one could say the product is “only for those with trained technical knowledge” or a similar statement, to avoid claims that this was a consumer product for the layperson, but rather for distribution within a trained, knowledgeable hobbyist community. One could also have this information clearly posted on the group buy signup.
This would handle what is called “failure to warn” liability.
You are welcome to fact check with a lawyer.
If there are any actual cases that someone can cite that have ever occurred on this forum regarding an issue from a group buy such as you describe I’d be interested to hear it. I don’t see material difference between a pcb group buy and a test lp. Both assume technical knowledge, neither are being distributed to consumers at large but only within a community who is aware of potential risks.
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