First assembly
Earlier I made a question about mounting the FE127e driver without
the supra baffle.
I've done a dry clamp assembly and the driver clears ok without
the supra baffle.
Glad to finally get some noise out of this build I have been playing
with over many months (and it's not done yet.)
The dry clamp job reveals a lot of resonance I can feel on the
walls. The build is not stood upright but vertical on a work table
on wheels that is about chest height.
First amp I used is not the best-- a Radio Shack SA-155 mini.
All of my stuff is solid state and I'm happy with that, not wanting
to deal with tube hum or construction either at this point.
Just walking around the thing at various distances, vocals sparkle
and I expect to hear good things from my usual sample pieces of
solo guitar by Martin Taylor. I also gave a spin to an organ recital
but this is an mp3 captured from an audio stream.
The build has nothing inside and I'm not sure of any interior treatments to do save for something relatively thin that would not lose my sparkle.
I intend to chamfer out the back of the driver hole.
Other question was on wire and interconnects. What is the preferred small guage wire? I figure the fewer interconnects the
better. Right now I have three connections-- from driver to a
length of standard speaker wire to the phono plug which goes to
the Radio Shack mini. I did all that to get some working room.
The long and hard work of everyone here has paid off and I'm much
appreciative of all your efforts.
My goal is to run a t-amp on this and maybe will get one while they
are 'in season'.
Earlier I made a question about mounting the FE127e driver without
the supra baffle.
I've done a dry clamp assembly and the driver clears ok without
the supra baffle.
Glad to finally get some noise out of this build I have been playing
with over many months (and it's not done yet.)
The dry clamp job reveals a lot of resonance I can feel on the
walls. The build is not stood upright but vertical on a work table
on wheels that is about chest height.
First amp I used is not the best-- a Radio Shack SA-155 mini.
All of my stuff is solid state and I'm happy with that, not wanting
to deal with tube hum or construction either at this point.
Just walking around the thing at various distances, vocals sparkle
and I expect to hear good things from my usual sample pieces of
solo guitar by Martin Taylor. I also gave a spin to an organ recital
but this is an mp3 captured from an audio stream.
The build has nothing inside and I'm not sure of any interior treatments to do save for something relatively thin that would not lose my sparkle.
I intend to chamfer out the back of the driver hole.
Other question was on wire and interconnects. What is the preferred small guage wire? I figure the fewer interconnects the
better. Right now I have three connections-- from driver to a
length of standard speaker wire to the phono plug which goes to
the Radio Shack mini. I did all that to get some working room.
The long and hard work of everyone here has paid off and I'm much
appreciative of all your efforts.
My goal is to run a t-amp on this and maybe will get one while they
are 'in season'.
Interconnects? For myself, I've never cared less what they are, providing they're properly designed (i.e well shielded). If you're running RCA phono, then semi-balanced is a good idea. Speaker cables vary depending on what I'm running or trying to achieve, from 30AWG magnet wire to 12AWG zip wire or solid core ring mains cable. With a t-amp something like a run of Cat5 will do nicely.
Mr. Moose,
You mentioned somewhere I think that the drivers in a BIB usually can't be in the optimal location because they won't be at ear height, so you use the "second best " location. Could you tell me where this is discussed? or explain how we know the optimal? and is the "second best" a percentage of that? And what the effects are of it not being optimal?
I want to build one with the Pioneer 8" B20FU but am curious what the optimal would be for that driver?
You said no question is stupid!
You mentioned somewhere I think that the drivers in a BIB usually can't be in the optimal location because they won't be at ear height, so you use the "second best " location. Could you tell me where this is discussed? or explain how we know the optimal? and is the "second best" a percentage of that? And what the effects are of it not being optimal?
I want to build one with the Pioneer 8" B20FU but am curious what the optimal would be for that driver?
You said no question is stupid!
Well, using Martin King's alignment tables as a basis, and following the 1:10 taper, which is closest to what we have with a BIB, indicates driver centre should be located at 0.416 of the total line length, which in a folded line like the BIB, would put it on the floor, or just about. Good move for a bass horn as it happens, but not ideal if you're intending to run full-range!
Oh, guys, in case anyone is wondering where GM is, I gather he's having problems with his 'net connection at present (engineering works and a couple of other problems). Thought I'd better let you know in case anyone was worried. Fingers crossed it gets sorted out soon as I know we all miss his advice here and elsewhere -I know I certainly do.
Oh, guys, in case anyone is wondering where GM is, I gather he's having problems with his 'net connection at present (engineering works and a couple of other problems). Thought I'd better let you know in case anyone was worried. Fingers crossed it gets sorted out soon as I know we all miss his advice here and elsewhere -I know I certainly do.
Scottmoose said:
I will only have the phono plugs as long as I am connected to the
Radio Shack.
A Sonic Impact ot my Yamaha RPU100 have bare wire connects.
But around here, trying to find standard components like banana plug
connections is impossible. I also don't know how to assemble them or
which have a screw in connection with no soldering. Zaphoid (John Krutke) used to have some info on rolling your own but he took that
down.
In the PE catalogue I get confused from looking at it all.
So what is a simple and cheap recommendation for an easy to assemble banana plug to terminal combo?
What I've been using is male and female bullet connectors
from the hardweare store. I solder those rather than trying to
crimp them (a Krutke tip) and run them through small holes out
the back. Kinda Dutchy but these are for personal use and I
plug and replug a lot.
Tomorrow during football I'm going to cut the chamfer and see what
that does.
[Small observation: the FE127e has a snug push-in fit with a
standard 4 in. hole cutter so I haven't even had to screw down the
driver. ]
Greets!
For a variety of reasons I haven't been able to keep up with this thread on a regular basis and it's been compounded by having very limited internet access in recent weeks, but hopefully that issue has finally been resolved, so starting with a long winded response I was working on when I ~dropped off-line.........
posts #1666, 1667
Greets!
Yeah, in the scheme of things, the room's acoustics and how effectively these things couple to it defines its SQ, but between the 'tone' of the thread initially and assuming that interest would die out as quickly as it started due to its grossly resonant sim, I just went with the 'flow', basing sims on TC's speaker rather than the most pertinent design criteria since that was already the trend.
Instead, it quickly developed a life of its own, running amuck with enthusiasm, so I figured why 'rock the boat' with my usual techno-babble and desire to only design/build high SQ/'accurate' designs. After all, speaker design is not an easy subject to learn for the vast majority of folks, so it needs plenty of easy to build, great bang/buck cabs for newbies/casual DIYers in the tradition of the David Weems $2 insulation board TQWT, etc., of days gone by to hopefully spark a desire to put forth the effort to learn it enough to keep the hobby alive in an era where most of the fun/personal satisfaction has been bled out of it with high tech modeling and measurement programs that only requires you to be computer semi-literate.
Then again, in today's 'fast food'/'sound byte'/'connected'/disposable preferred lifestyle, it's the appropriate response for the times, i.e. technically 'good enough' designs with little knowledge/effort required on the 'designer's' part, but the downside is that it relegates the artisans of speaker building like TC to being perceived by the neophyte to the hobby as merely 'artistes' more interested in form over function (aka the 'WOW' factor), so I thank those of you who gambled your quality time/$$ on the various incarnations of TC's Voigt concept pipes even though typical cab design programs predict the antithesis of acceptable sound reproduction.
Anyway, Paul, Scott explained what the half space simming trend would look like, but oversize pipes can be fine tuned to the room, with a lot of latitude WRT driver positioning, while too small a pipe has no good options since it has no acoustic gain to spare. Indeed, the few floor loaded variants I built ages ago were huge due to not having any specs beyond Fs, Re and sometimes an impedance plot, with the driver between ~65-70% down the pipe Vs the BIB's ~21.7%.
Though I seriously doubt they would measure all that well by today's standards, these sounded 'smooth/tight as a baby's bottom' in-room while still having enough acoustic gain for extension below any vinyl or tape source of the day since on the one hand the driver was ~close to the physical terminus, reducing audible wide BW comb filtering in the mids/HF while still being acoustically far from the LF BW's acoustic terminus, i.e. tuned down into the room's acoustic gain curve. The BIB OTOH has to rely on selective internal damping/corner loading to get similar results due to its BLH-like long pathlength from driver to terminus without the benefit of the mechanical damping of multiple folds.
GM
For a variety of reasons I haven't been able to keep up with this thread on a regular basis and it's been compounded by having very limited internet access in recent weeks, but hopefully that issue has finally been resolved, so starting with a long winded response I was working on when I ~dropped off-line.........
posts #1666, 1667
pjanda1 said:
Scottmoose said:
Greets!
Yeah, in the scheme of things, the room's acoustics and how effectively these things couple to it defines its SQ, but between the 'tone' of the thread initially and assuming that interest would die out as quickly as it started due to its grossly resonant sim, I just went with the 'flow', basing sims on TC's speaker rather than the most pertinent design criteria since that was already the trend.
Instead, it quickly developed a life of its own, running amuck with enthusiasm, so I figured why 'rock the boat' with my usual techno-babble and desire to only design/build high SQ/'accurate' designs. After all, speaker design is not an easy subject to learn for the vast majority of folks, so it needs plenty of easy to build, great bang/buck cabs for newbies/casual DIYers in the tradition of the David Weems $2 insulation board TQWT, etc., of days gone by to hopefully spark a desire to put forth the effort to learn it enough to keep the hobby alive in an era where most of the fun/personal satisfaction has been bled out of it with high tech modeling and measurement programs that only requires you to be computer semi-literate.
Then again, in today's 'fast food'/'sound byte'/'connected'/disposable preferred lifestyle, it's the appropriate response for the times, i.e. technically 'good enough' designs with little knowledge/effort required on the 'designer's' part, but the downside is that it relegates the artisans of speaker building like TC to being perceived by the neophyte to the hobby as merely 'artistes' more interested in form over function (aka the 'WOW' factor), so I thank those of you who gambled your quality time/$$ on the various incarnations of TC's Voigt concept pipes even though typical cab design programs predict the antithesis of acceptable sound reproduction.
Anyway, Paul, Scott explained what the half space simming trend would look like, but oversize pipes can be fine tuned to the room, with a lot of latitude WRT driver positioning, while too small a pipe has no good options since it has no acoustic gain to spare. Indeed, the few floor loaded variants I built ages ago were huge due to not having any specs beyond Fs, Re and sometimes an impedance plot, with the driver between ~65-70% down the pipe Vs the BIB's ~21.7%.
Though I seriously doubt they would measure all that well by today's standards, these sounded 'smooth/tight as a baby's bottom' in-room while still having enough acoustic gain for extension below any vinyl or tape source of the day since on the one hand the driver was ~close to the physical terminus, reducing audible wide BW comb filtering in the mids/HF while still being acoustically far from the LF BW's acoustic terminus, i.e. tuned down into the room's acoustic gain curve. The BIB OTOH has to rely on selective internal damping/corner loading to get similar results due to its BLH-like long pathlength from driver to terminus without the benefit of the mechanical damping of multiple folds.
GM
Greg -thanks for that. It's a tragedy that so many people nowadays view software as the ultimate solution, rather than a tool to aid in the design stages. (No offense meant to Martin or others there -they never claimed it was supposed to replace creativity either).
Variac -re driver position, the precise location that's as optimal as practicably possible will vary according to driver spec, but it's in that vicinity. Using Greg's stated 21.7% will usually yeild the best results though.
Variac -re driver position, the precise location that's as optimal as practicably possible will vary according to driver spec, but it's in that vicinity. Using Greg's stated 21.7% will usually yeild the best results though.
Greets!
This one apparently 'slipped through the cracks' of my not keeping close enough tabs on this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1031936#post1031936
You can get by with the 215RTF64's BIB specs if space is a major issue, though I recommend using the 'stock' BIB folded length/driver position due to the Bicone's lower Fs, but for ~max performance/tunability I would 'go for the gold' with a BLH sized ~1000"^2 terminus to get some of that OB 'relaxed' SQ you're used to, except a whole lot more of it to a lot lower cutoff.
Doing a thread search, I didn't find an Eminence Alpha series BIB, but I did one for the revised 12LTA in another thread to fit a particular app and forgot to post it here, so........
L = 150"
Sm = 559"^2
zdriver = 32.55"
Again though, 'BIB', so I recommend ~770^2 Sm.
These require a super tweeter, so considering the somewhat higher driver/floor dim., locating it beneath the 12 LTA ala the Zu Druid should work well, ergo its XO probably is close enough to at least begin dialing in.
GM
This one apparently 'slipped through the cracks' of my not keeping close enough tabs on this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1031936#post1031936
You can get by with the 215RTF64's BIB specs if space is a major issue, though I recommend using the 'stock' BIB folded length/driver position due to the Bicone's lower Fs, but for ~max performance/tunability I would 'go for the gold' with a BLH sized ~1000"^2 terminus to get some of that OB 'relaxed' SQ you're used to, except a whole lot more of it to a lot lower cutoff.
Doing a thread search, I didn't find an Eminence Alpha series BIB, but I did one for the revised 12LTA in another thread to fit a particular app and forgot to post it here, so........
L = 150"
Sm = 559"^2
zdriver = 32.55"
Again though, 'BIB'
, so I recommend ~770^2 Sm.These require a super tweeter, so considering the somewhat higher driver/floor dim., locating it beneath the 12 LTA ala the Zu Druid should work well, ergo its XO probably is close enough to at least begin dialing in.
GM
Here's the Eminence Beta 12LTA BIB thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88104&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
I'm waiting for any reports on someone making it. Should be one of the best fun/price projects out there!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88104&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
I'm waiting for any reports on someone making it. Should be one of the best fun/price projects out there!
BIB build continues
Today I added some carpet foam underlayment behind the Fostex
FE127e from below the point of the closed end down the length of the
divider. I just tacked it down with a bit of removable rubber glue. I can't tell specifically if that cuts down on the flare action or (as GM says) reduces the reflection back through the cone. The foam is in contact with the rear of the driver (as in .pinched'.)
The GM comments above are well-taken. I am one of those David
Weems experimenters and have one of the Weems books. Still don't know jack about theory though. It is definately a Frugalphile approach.
Today I added some carpet foam underlayment behind the Fostex
FE127e from below the point of the closed end down the length of the
divider. I just tacked it down with a bit of removable rubber glue. I can't tell specifically if that cuts down on the flare action or (as GM says) reduces the reflection back through the cone. The foam is in contact with the rear of the driver (as in .pinched'.)
The GM comments above are well-taken. I am one of those David
Weems experimenters and have one of the Weems books. Still don't know jack about theory though. It is definately a Frugalphile approach.
108's with bass!
I built a set of FE126 (more bass variant) yesterday to try to help me to narrow down a niggle I've been having with another build (upper-mid stridency, cabinet or driver?)
Very rough, but three hours from start to playing can't be bad! (with a little help from the B&Q big wizzy saw! - BTW if there are any English Midlands readers here who have been finding 13-ply tough to get hold of, B&Q Tipton had a pallet delivered to them by mistake over the weekend - it was still there today, they'll sell it to you at ~£30 for an 8*4 sheet, and of couse can cut it for you - if only I'd had the cash to spare.
)
End result, same stridency (female vocals, clarinet, marimbas, etc hit something that makes me wince).
I then tried a pair of 108's that I have. A little shouty and a bit thin compared with the 126's, but not bad, considering at this stage there was no damping.
Next, damping in all the usual places, back in with the 108's, along with the mini-horn inspired by a thread a few months back to boost the 1K band.
Oo-er! A distinct lack of shout, and a downright disgusting amount of tunefull bass (ok not exactly Balrog country, but still meaty! - they have a fair stab at the organ whoomph at the end of 'Mars' from the Planets Suite)
Upper bass is light as you'd expect from this tuning, but not ludicrously so.
The long and short is I still don't know if the damping helps the 126's, because I can't make myself swap the drivers back!
Questions, questions:
- How much of a mid-bass suckout am I really getting with this configuration?
- Is there a 'more bass' option for the 108EZ dims?
- If I built the 108 BiB to better integrate the mid and lower bass, would I disappointedly find that there'd be no low bass to integrate to in the smaller enclosure?
- What are Saturdays' lottery numbers?
I apologise if the above questions have been asked *10^6 before, but I did search, honest!
Cheers
Dave
I built a set of FE126 (more bass variant) yesterday to try to help me to narrow down a niggle I've been having with another build (upper-mid stridency, cabinet or driver?)
Very rough, but three hours from start to playing can't be bad! (with a little help from the B&Q big wizzy saw! - BTW if there are any English Midlands readers here who have been finding 13-ply tough to get hold of, B&Q Tipton had a pallet delivered to them by mistake over the weekend - it was still there today, they'll sell it to you at ~£30 for an 8*4 sheet, and of couse can cut it for you - if only I'd had the cash to spare.
)End result, same stridency (female vocals, clarinet, marimbas, etc hit something that makes me wince).
I then tried a pair of 108's that I have. A little shouty and a bit thin compared with the 126's, but not bad, considering at this stage there was no damping.
Next, damping in all the usual places, back in with the 108's, along with the mini-horn inspired by a thread a few months back to boost the 1K band.
Oo-er! A distinct lack of shout, and a downright disgusting amount of tunefull bass (ok not exactly Balrog country, but still meaty! - they have a fair stab at the organ whoomph at the end of 'Mars' from the Planets Suite)
Upper bass is light as you'd expect from this tuning, but not ludicrously so.
The long and short is I still don't know if the damping helps the 126's, because I can't make myself swap the drivers back!
Questions, questions:
- How much of a mid-bass suckout am I really getting with this configuration?
- Is there a 'more bass' option for the 108EZ dims?
- If I built the 108 BiB to better integrate the mid and lower bass, would I disappointedly find that there'd be no low bass to integrate to in the smaller enclosure?
- What are Saturdays' lottery numbers?
I apologise if the above questions have been asked *10^6 before, but I did search, honest!
Cheers
Dave
Attachments
Driver burn in...
may be the cause of your edge issue. while I have not built the cabinets that you are working on I have built a number of cabinets that use the fe126e and the fe108. The 108 cabinet was a BLH design. I found that especially with the BLH burn in time was significant. I would suggest that you build up a couple of burn in only boxes install the drivers and run them face to face out of phase for a good long time. These drivers are different animals once burned in.
I can recall the Canadian distributor telling me years ago that unless you ran a lowther for year prior to selling (giving up on them) that you really had no idea what it was that you sold. I laughed at the time but since playing with fostex drivers I bebin to understand. In a horn cab the drivers just loaf along most of the time and the suspensions and cones don't really get much of a work out. A sound excercise run in a test box can make a big difference. Best regards Moray James.
may be the cause of your edge issue. while I have not built the cabinets that you are working on I have built a number of cabinets that use the fe126e and the fe108. The 108 cabinet was a BLH design. I found that especially with the BLH burn in time was significant. I would suggest that you build up a couple of burn in only boxes install the drivers and run them face to face out of phase for a good long time. These drivers are different animals once burned in.
I can recall the Canadian distributor telling me years ago that unless you ran a lowther for year prior to selling (giving up on them) that you really had no idea what it was that you sold. I laughed at the time but since playing with fostex drivers I bebin to understand. In a horn cab the drivers just loaf along most of the time and the suspensions and cones don't really get much of a work out. A sound excercise run in a test box can make a big difference. Best regards Moray James.
burn in
If you're looking for a real roller coater ride, try burning in almost any of the Fostex fullrangers in BLH or BIB and a (pair of) new DHT SET amps with film/foil power supply and coupling caps.
During the first 150-200 hours, you can risk a lot of second guessing "did I do the right thing here?"
If you're looking for a real roller coater ride, try burning in almost any of the Fostex fullrangers in BLH or BIB and a (pair of) new DHT SET amps with film/foil power supply and coupling caps.
During the first 150-200 hours, you can risk a lot of second guessing "did I do the right thing here?"
Break in on the Fostex 168 for those contemplating them requires Zen monastical patience. We in our immediate gratification society are in no way prepared for the wait to experience these things the way their auteurs intended. Minimum 1000+ hours. Don't even think about an opinion beforehand. It is about relaxation of the banana fibers, oxidation of organic components, all sorts of things. Fortunately, when I got involved with mine, now four years ago, TC had warned me.
The hemp cones go through some weird roller coaster ride where sometimes they will go from sounding okay to the worst noise maker in New York on New Year's Eve, no kidding. Then, around 100 hours, they sort of "get it."
I really, really like these drivers. Someone building Hemptone BIB's yet???
SET amps also go through a weird break in, mostly sounding really dull and flat, then suddenly sometimes, they all make sense of it. The little Music Reference 13EM7 SET came around when I realized there was this SET "sound cloud" I call it, enveloping the BIB168. Add in the unique BONUS of lower register presentation no one can distinguish from open baffle, and man what a great short cut to superior sound.
BIB's really are the schitz...
The hemp cones go through some weird roller coaster ride where sometimes they will go from sounding okay to the worst noise maker in New York on New Year's Eve, no kidding. Then, around 100 hours, they sort of "get it."
I really, really like these drivers. Someone building Hemptone BIB's yet???
SET amps also go through a weird break in, mostly sounding really dull and flat, then suddenly sometimes, they all make sense of it. The little Music Reference 13EM7 SET came around when I realized there was this SET "sound cloud" I call it, enveloping the BIB168. Add in the unique BONUS of lower register presentation no one can distinguish from open baffle, and man what a great short cut to superior sound.
BIB's really are the schitz...
I am building the hemps in a BiB... the monolith. I'm pretty close to having them done. I've been running the drivers in a small box for breaking in. How long should I break these puppies in? Thanks.
dmason said:Break in on the Fostex 168 for those contemplating them requires Zen monastical patience. We in our immediate gratification society are in no way prepared for the wait to experience these things the way their auteurs intended. Minimum 1000+ hours. Don't even think about an opinion beforehand. It is about relaxation of the banana fibers, oxidation of organic components, all sorts of things. Fortunately, when I got involved with mine, now four years ago, TC had warned me.
The hemp cones go through some weird roller coaster ride where sometimes they will go from sounding okay to the worst noise maker in New York on New Year's Eve, no kidding. Then, around 100 hours, they sort of "get it."
I really, really like these drivers. Someone building Hemptone BIB's yet???
SET amps also go through a weird break in, mostly sounding really dull and flat, then suddenly sometimes, they all make sense of it. The little Music Reference 13EM7 SET came around when I realized there was this SET "sound cloud" I call it, enveloping the BIB168. Add in the unique BONUS of lower register presentation no one can distinguish from open baffle, and man what a great short cut to superior sound.
BIB's really are the schitz...
Beware The Monolith my son
The claws that catch, the jaws that snatch
And shun the frumious Bandersnatch...
I envy you. I really hope we get a look at these things.
If you are breaking in the Hempsters ahead of time, I would just let them rock, or play a tone ~45Hz for a few days, and I would imagine they should be fine. I broke mine in with flea amps for the most part, and the sickness subsided in due time; in your case, I would imagine they might sound pretty darn good by the time you mount them. They sound pretty darn good after a few hundread hours that is for sure. Then we can talk about little tweaks to the cone here and there.
I really think the Hemp Monolith is a good thing for humanity.
The claws that catch, the jaws that snatch
And shun the frumious Bandersnatch...
I envy you. I really hope we get a look at these things.
If you are breaking in the Hempsters ahead of time, I would just let them rock, or play a tone ~45Hz for a few days, and I would imagine they should be fine. I broke mine in with flea amps for the most part, and the sickness subsided in due time; in your case, I would imagine they might sound pretty darn good by the time you mount them. They sound pretty darn good after a few hundread hours that is for sure. Then we can talk about little tweaks to the cone here and there.
I really think the Hemp Monolith is a good thing for humanity.