Hi to everybody! I'm planning to build a Monacor SP200X BIB, I'm a total DIY novice so I need a cleen up on some points...
The feaver of passion in this thread is amazing but I'm a bit lost in such a big amount of ideas and suggestions.
I'll try to be be really explicative 'cause of my rude english! Sorry!
a) the Dims posted here and in Zilla site are intended to be internal (expecially L and Sm)?
b) Is there a "golden rule" for BIB height to totally benefit of ceiling interaction? Or maybe is there a maximun height beyond wich the ceiling interaction becomes too aberrant?
c) The above consideration is related to the possibility of tuning a bit more the Monacor LF to 48 or 45Hz and consequently a longer Line lenght to 141" and 150" - circa- 'cause I think It would be more playable the speaker placement in relation with acoustical room behaviour... Am I wrong?
d) Streatching the Line lenght from suggested 136" to 141" or 150" implies a terminus area revision?
e) Just a curiosity (I have no cats nor do I!!! Don't kill me! he, he, ), what happen if closing the throat of the internal baffle so that is not 1/2W from rear wall and from the bottom, but less than that? (Like the first TC original BIB).
Thanks a lot, I'm dreaming on my first BIB.
CIAo! Fab.
The feaver of passion in this thread is amazing but I'm a bit lost in such a big amount of ideas and suggestions.
I'll try to be be really explicative 'cause of my rude english! Sorry!
a) the Dims posted here and in Zilla site are intended to be internal (expecially L and Sm)?
b) Is there a "golden rule" for BIB height to totally benefit of ceiling interaction? Or maybe is there a maximun height beyond wich the ceiling interaction becomes too aberrant?
c) The above consideration is related to the possibility of tuning a bit more the Monacor LF to 48 or 45Hz and consequently a longer Line lenght to 141" and 150" - circa- 'cause I think It would be more playable the speaker placement in relation with acoustical room behaviour... Am I wrong?
d) Streatching the Line lenght from suggested 136" to 141" or 150" implies a terminus area revision?
e) Just a curiosity (I have no cats nor do I!!! Don't kill me! he, he, ), what happen if closing the throat of the internal baffle so that is not 1/2W from rear wall and from the bottom, but less than that? (Like the first TC original BIB).
Thanks a lot, I'm dreaming on my first BIB.
CIAo! Fab.
Hi
Good questions well asked. Nothing wrong with your English either -the only other language I know is a touch of latin that was beaten into me 15 years ago at school, and has since mostly leaked out.
a) Yes, the dimensions on the pages Jeff (Godzilla) so kindly offered to host are all internal.
b) There probably is, but it'd likely need someone with Martin King's math ability or Greg's vast experience to figure it out. As-is, that's a question beyond my level of competance, so I'll defer to higher authority, aside from a couple of observations. Firstly, it will also depend on the furnishings and exact position of the cabinets in a room, and even what the room is built from. And secondly, the ceiling only plays one part in it: the rear and side reflection boundary considtions (i.e the walls) are just as important. Based on the comments of the numerous builders over the last few months, and my own experience, I would say that so long as you're not living in a castle with 15-20 foot ceilings, where you need a hot air balloon to change a light-bulb, you should be fine.
c) No, you're not wrong. The published Fs of the SP-200x is 50Hz. Assuming that's true, you can tune the length a little lower. 45Hz 1/2 wave tuning is reasonable, but I wouldn't advise going below that or you might find the mid-bass will vanish. I'd actually expect the LF performance to improve somewhat over the posted dimensions -partly becuase of the longer line, but also because of the extra box volume (Vb) which is critical in these enclosures.
d) No. Terminus area stays as-is. If you've got the room to increase it of course (which means increasing the WxD of the box), you can reap a few more benefits, as you'll see below.
e) Well, Terry's box had the internal baffle terminating in the middle of the enclosure, the same distance from the floor and walls, just like all of these do. He used 1in material, not 3/4in: when you read the article knowing this, the dimensions he specifies make sense (threw me that too, until Greg put me straight). As for what would happen -nothing good. I ran a few sims out of interest a while back, and abandoned the idea.
If you have the space, you could achieve this with the SP-200X:
150in line length.
Zdriver 30in
Sm=221.875in^2
I didn't bother with this before, because it's a very large enclosure for a relatively cheap driver, and I reasoned that those with cheaper drivers probably would not be wanting to spend as much on materials. The existing box, lengthened to 150in will also have a small improvement in the LF regions on the original, which isn't exactly a slouch itself.
Best
Scott
Good questions well asked. Nothing wrong with your English either -the only other language I know is a touch of latin that was beaten into me 15 years ago at school, and has since mostly leaked out.
a) Yes, the dimensions on the pages Jeff (Godzilla) so kindly offered to host are all internal.
b) There probably is, but it'd likely need someone with Martin King's math ability or Greg's vast experience to figure it out. As-is, that's a question beyond my level of competance, so I'll defer to higher authority, aside from a couple of observations. Firstly, it will also depend on the furnishings and exact position of the cabinets in a room, and even what the room is built from. And secondly, the ceiling only plays one part in it: the rear and side reflection boundary considtions (i.e the walls) are just as important. Based on the comments of the numerous builders over the last few months, and my own experience, I would say that so long as you're not living in a castle with 15-20 foot ceilings, where you need a hot air balloon to change a light-bulb, you should be fine.
c) No, you're not wrong. The published Fs of the SP-200x is 50Hz. Assuming that's true, you can tune the length a little lower. 45Hz 1/2 wave tuning is reasonable, but I wouldn't advise going below that or you might find the mid-bass will vanish. I'd actually expect the LF performance to improve somewhat over the posted dimensions -partly becuase of the longer line, but also because of the extra box volume (Vb) which is critical in these enclosures.
d) No. Terminus area stays as-is. If you've got the room to increase it of course (which means increasing the WxD of the box), you can reap a few more benefits, as you'll see below.
e) Well, Terry's box had the internal baffle terminating in the middle of the enclosure, the same distance from the floor and walls, just like all of these do. He used 1in material, not 3/4in: when you read the article knowing this, the dimensions he specifies make sense (threw me that too, until Greg put me straight). As for what would happen -nothing good. I ran a few sims out of interest a while back, and abandoned the idea.
If you have the space, you could achieve this with the SP-200X:
150in line length.
Zdriver 30in
Sm=221.875in^2
I didn't bother with this before, because it's a very large enclosure for a relatively cheap driver, and I reasoned that those with cheaper drivers probably would not be wanting to spend as much on materials. The existing box, lengthened to 150in will also have a small improvement in the LF regions on the original, which isn't exactly a slouch itself.
Best
Scott
Attachments
Scottmoose said:Made from genuine gorillas you know.
I tend to use PVA for my projects. Though my finishing technique leaves a lot to be desired. Bomb-proof yes. Attractive? No.
Is it from the cologne company in Ancor Man? "Its got real bits of panther in it so you know it works"
"40% of the time.... it works every time!"
Hi,
§Thanks Scott for answering me, now I've things to work on.
I've considered your Dims for a larger cab for Monacor drive, that's a big BIB indeed! But I think I'll probably go for the smaller one. I considered my room dimension, 10.33ft x 16.40ft of usable space in a "U" shape (part of a kind of big open space basement), 8.2ft ceiling, not ready yet, (I have to finish the wooden floor and other few things) and no idea of room treatment necessary for best performance....
More, I agree with you that bigger cabs deserve also much better drivers! And that's my first project too!
I was reading again this long thread and remembered a couple of links I found around while searching for a DIY project - maybe could be interesting for someone to have new points for tweaking a BIB:
- this link is a variation on TQWT and maybe a starting idea for inverted BIB design and Helmholtz resonator
http://www.audiofanatic.it/Diffusori/Tqwt215/TQWT215_1.html
- this is somewhat interesting 'cause I think is definitely a BIB but with Helmholz resonator
http://www.flo-horns.de/Flo13/Flo13.htm
What do you think?
CiaO. Fab
§Thanks Scott for answering me, now I've things to work on.
I've considered your Dims for a larger cab for Monacor drive, that's a big BIB indeed! But I think I'll probably go for the smaller one. I considered my room dimension, 10.33ft x 16.40ft of usable space in a "U" shape (part of a kind of big open space basement), 8.2ft ceiling, not ready yet, (I have to finish the wooden floor and other few things) and no idea of room treatment necessary for best performance....
More, I agree with you that bigger cabs deserve also much better drivers! And that's my first project too!
I was reading again this long thread and remembered a couple of links I found around while searching for a DIY project - maybe could be interesting for someone to have new points for tweaking a BIB:
- this link is a variation on TQWT and maybe a starting idea for inverted BIB design and Helmholtz resonator
http://www.audiofanatic.it/Diffusori/Tqwt215/TQWT215_1.html
- this is somewhat interesting 'cause I think is definitely a BIB but with Helmholz resonator
http://www.flo-horns.de/Flo13/Flo13.htm
What do you think?
CiaO. Fab
The Flo-horn I've looked at myself. Not speaking German too well, I'm not sure. The length appears too great for the 103, though there's nothing per-se wrong in combining it with an HH resonator to compensate a bit. It is indeed basically a BIB though. The other's your classic ML TQWT -remember though that the BIB is a horn, not a TL variation. It works differently to most TQWTs etc.
For your room, I agree that the original size for the SP-200X, albeit with line length increased to about 150in or so and Zdriver of 30in would be a better bet than the much larger ~optimised version, at least from the aestetic and cost point of view. Alternatively, you might want to consider the bargin of the bunch: the smaller SPH-60X driver, which will work very well in a room your size -better than the larger driver I suspect. You won't miss anything in extension or LF power, nor would you need a tweeter (unlike the 8in SP-200X). Fantastic little driver. As an added bonus, it's cheaper, and needs a smaller box. That would be my choice over it's larger brother anyway.
Regards
Scott
For your room, I agree that the original size for the SP-200X, albeit with line length increased to about 150in or so and Zdriver of 30in would be a better bet than the much larger ~optimised version, at least from the aestetic and cost point of view. Alternatively, you might want to consider the bargin of the bunch: the smaller SPH-60X driver, which will work very well in a room your size -better than the larger driver I suspect. You won't miss anything in extension or LF power, nor would you need a tweeter (unlike the 8in SP-200X). Fantastic little driver. As an added bonus, it's cheaper, and needs a smaller box. That would be my choice over it's larger brother anyway.
Regards
Scott
Hi Fab!
I have the Monacor SPH60X in a 50 sqm room and they fill the room with quite unbelievable extension and volume in the bass.
I've also tried them in a similar room size that you have.
I use for the moment a cheap NAD amp with tone controls and in the small room I had to turn down the bass! I suspect you could have too much bass with the 200X.
Of course it's possible to stuff the box but it kills the impact of bass drums and so on. I rather have a rhytmic speaker than a booming one.
All matters of personal taste in the end, I suppose.
Good luck!
Peter
I have the Monacor SPH60X in a 50 sqm room and they fill the room with quite unbelievable extension and volume in the bass.
I've also tried them in a similar room size that you have.
I use for the moment a cheap NAD amp with tone controls and in the small room I had to turn down the bass! I suspect you could have too much bass with the 200X.
Of course it's possible to stuff the box but it kills the impact of bass drums and so on. I rather have a rhytmic speaker than a booming one.
All matters of personal taste in the end, I suppose.
Good luck!
Peter
Not another FE168 BIB!
Just finished a pair of BIB-168 cabs and thought I would share my impressions and a few pics.
Cabs went together really easy using clamp and glue method - not much more to say on that really!
Having completed the cabs took the FE168s out of the Brines FT1600 cabs where they had been running in and put them in the BIBs. The drivers have had something like 50-70 hours and only just past that initial nasal sound - still more running in to come. They were sounding good in the Brines cabs - open midrange, good bass extension but the move to the BIB cabs was quite dramatic and beyond my expectations. The sound "grew", not just the awesome bass extension and control but a bigger, room filling sound along with BIG soundstage (speakers in the room corners). Ballance entirely different from the Brines cabs. Seem to produce more sound per watt as well, volume control typically 4-5 clicks down (stepped attenuator - 1.5db/step). More than just the 2-3db benefit from not using the BSC filter in the Brines cabs.
Last night changed amps replacing my mega$ Plinius SA100 (100W calss A) with a T-amp (AMP6). The amp6 very easily drive the BIB-168s LOUD and seem to free up the bass - even considering moving them in from the corners a bit! Clearly the T-amp is a good match, will try my Gainclone later.
BIG thanks to all who have made this design available and refined it - this is what DIY is all about guys!
And the pics - finished and making sounds!
Just finished a pair of BIB-168 cabs and thought I would share my impressions and a few pics.
Cabs went together really easy using clamp and glue method - not much more to say on that really!
Having completed the cabs took the FE168s out of the Brines FT1600 cabs where they had been running in and put them in the BIBs. The drivers have had something like 50-70 hours and only just past that initial nasal sound - still more running in to come. They were sounding good in the Brines cabs - open midrange, good bass extension but the move to the BIB cabs was quite dramatic and beyond my expectations. The sound "grew", not just the awesome bass extension and control but a bigger, room filling sound along with BIG soundstage (speakers in the room corners). Ballance entirely different from the Brines cabs. Seem to produce more sound per watt as well, volume control typically 4-5 clicks down (stepped attenuator - 1.5db/step). More than just the 2-3db benefit from not using the BSC filter in the Brines cabs.
Last night changed amps replacing my mega$ Plinius SA100 (100W calss A) with a T-amp (AMP6). The amp6 very easily drive the BIB-168s LOUD and seem to free up the bass - even considering moving them in from the corners a bit! Clearly the T-amp is a good match, will try my Gainclone later.
BIG thanks to all who have made this design available and refined it - this is what DIY is all about guys!
And the pics - finished and making sounds!
Attachments
Very nice work indeed. I take it you like them then Chris... ;>)
The lower damping factor of the T-amp works well with FR drivers -it's a pretty natural combination. The BIB will go louder for 1w input than Bob's superb FT-1600 MLTL (I'm a fan) even without the circuit because, being a horn, it produces considerably more gain. In only 1/2 space, it's up about 93-94 db 1/w 1/m, and you can add more to that due to room-gain -how much more depends on position.
Best
Scott
The lower damping factor of the T-amp works well with FR drivers -it's a pretty natural combination. The BIB will go louder for 1w input than Bob's superb FT-1600 MLTL (I'm a fan) even without the circuit because, being a horn, it produces considerably more gain. In only 1/2 space, it's up about 93-94 db 1/w 1/m, and you can add more to that due to room-gain -how much more depends on position.
Best
Scott
Oh yes, nearly forgot. If you want to get a real feel for just what these things can do, find a copy of Talk Talk's seminal 1986 album 'The Colour of Spring', if you don't already own a copy. It's pretty cheap on CD (one of the very best sounding CDs I've ever heard). Doesn't matter if it's not your sort of music; it's the quality of the performances, recording and mixing we're after here.
Sit back in the dark and prepare to be stunned.
Cavernous bass depth and soundstage width, height and depth. Dynamics. Tone. Imaging. MLTLs with FR drivers (love them though I do) can't do this album properly -they always loose the dynamic edge, the scale and impact. Small accoustic jazz ensembles / chamber music / folk / blues etc. is their thing -they crack up when presented with something like this. It's an evil test. And a fantastic listen too, even if it's not your sort of music.
Sit back in the dark and prepare to be stunned.
Cavernous bass depth and soundstage width, height and depth. Dynamics. Tone. Imaging. MLTLs with FR drivers (love them though I do) can't do this album properly -they always loose the dynamic edge, the scale and impact. Small accoustic jazz ensembles / chamber music / folk / blues etc. is their thing -they crack up when presented with something like this. It's an evil test. And a fantastic listen too, even if it's not your sort of music.
Chris
Fantastic!! Waking up to the pix and comments does my heart good. Very glad you like. Again, for the newer readers, the Fostex FE168EZ is pretty much a bullseye driver for a VERY high quality pair of speakers.
Scott,
You mention the attributes of the sound perfectly. The sense of venue, when listening in the dark is almost staggering with these things. It was also my impression that albums which are truly well produced really jump out at you. Peter Gabriel's "So," is another ringer. John Williams/London Symphony, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" is a masterpiece, a hidden gem, and for those of you who love twentieth century impressionist orchestral music, this album picks up where Prokofiev left off, let there be no doubt. Another two stunners are the Pablo release of The Oscar Peterson Big 5, recorded at the Montreux Festival, and the remastered Emerson, Lake, & Palmer "Brain Salad Surgery" -these albums are musical re-synthesis that can hurt you, and are wonderful demonstrations of the amazing organic presentation of music by my FE168EZ BIB's. These BIB's will pass a Flecktone bass test.
Fantastic!! Waking up to the pix and comments does my heart good. Very glad you like. Again, for the newer readers, the Fostex FE168EZ is pretty much a bullseye driver for a VERY high quality pair of speakers.
Scott,
You mention the attributes of the sound perfectly. The sense of venue, when listening in the dark is almost staggering with these things. It was also my impression that albums which are truly well produced really jump out at you. Peter Gabriel's "So," is another ringer. John Williams/London Symphony, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" is a masterpiece, a hidden gem, and for those of you who love twentieth century impressionist orchestral music, this album picks up where Prokofiev left off, let there be no doubt. Another two stunners are the Pablo release of The Oscar Peterson Big 5, recorded at the Montreux Festival, and the remastered Emerson, Lake, & Palmer "Brain Salad Surgery" -these albums are musical re-synthesis that can hurt you, and are wonderful demonstrations of the amazing organic presentation of music by my FE168EZ BIB's. These BIB's will pass a Flecktone bass test.
Re: Scott & Peter
Yep! I was going to ask info about SPH-60x, 'cause reading again the thread I saw many agreement on it (and on the other hand, none about SP200x)!
Scott : I was considering to use a supertweeter mounted on a "false rotating round" baffle with SP200x either... does the SPH-60x need some super tweeter due to those strange peaks in between 3kz to 10kh?
I know just a little of Helmhotz resonator (I'm going to use some for room treatment - à la RPG Diffusors - ), do you think they could work for a BIB tweaking? Do any MathCad fans approach an answer?
Peter: Did you have to stuff the cab in a particular way to control resonancies? I've read somewhere something but can't find it anymore...sorry.
Thank a lot guys, I'm really enjoing myself!
P.s. : I have 2 vinyl pressings of The Colour of Spring, an Italian and an English one (which sounds better), I'm dying to ear Living in another world with my future BIBs and also SimpyRed - Sad old Red....
Yessssss! Ciao.
Fab.
Yep! I was going to ask info about SPH-60x, 'cause reading again the thread I saw many agreement on it (and on the other hand, none about SP200x)!
Scott : I was considering to use a supertweeter mounted on a "false rotating round" baffle with SP200x either... does the SPH-60x need some super tweeter due to those strange peaks in between 3kz to 10kh?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I know just a little of Helmhotz resonator (I'm going to use some for room treatment - à la RPG Diffusors - ), do you think they could work for a BIB tweaking? Do any MathCad fans approach an answer?
Peter: Did you have to stuff the cab in a particular way to control resonancies? I've read somewhere something but can't find it anymore...sorry.
Thank a lot guys, I'm really enjoing myself!
P.s. : I have 2 vinyl pressings of The Colour of Spring, an Italian and an English one (which sounds better), I'm dying to ear Living in another world with my future BIBs and also SimpyRed - Sad old Red....
Yessssss! Ciao.
Fab.
Hi again Fab!
I've only put some Acousta stuff at the closed end, and some one inch felt behind driver down about 30 cm. Also one inch at the bottom. I have some ideas to try about damping, but time.....
I recommend to have the bottom plate removable due to room adjustments with damping. Sometimes with some recordings I put a spray boot filter close to the mouth to get rid of highs coming out of the mouth but that's not often I use it.
About the dips and peaks around 6k, I can't hear this but maybe when compaired with a better driver it will be audible.
In the beginning I thought it was missing in the highs but when listening to live music, with acoustical instruments. There is not so much treble as it comes from a recorded concert when one is listening to some of the commercial loudspeakers. However I plan to put a tweeter firing upwards just to have the option of a wider sweet spot.
All in all, as I've posted before, the pro's exceeds the cons with these speakers. I will upgrade some time in the near future but no real plans what it will be for now.
Cheers/Peter
I've only put some Acousta stuff at the closed end, and some one inch felt behind driver down about 30 cm. Also one inch at the bottom. I have some ideas to try about damping, but time.....
I recommend to have the bottom plate removable due to room adjustments with damping. Sometimes with some recordings I put a spray boot filter close to the mouth to get rid of highs coming out of the mouth but that's not often I use it.
About the dips and peaks around 6k, I can't hear this but maybe when compaired with a better driver it will be audible.
In the beginning I thought it was missing in the highs but when listening to live music, with acoustical instruments. There is not so much treble as it comes from a recorded concert when one is listening to some of the commercial loudspeakers. However I plan to put a tweeter firing upwards just to have the option of a wider sweet spot.
All in all, as I've posted before, the pro's exceeds the cons with these speakers. I will upgrade some time in the near future but no real plans what it will be for now.
Cheers/Peter
You and me both Peter.
I haven't found they need a tweeter at all though -the slight ripple in the response isn't particularly audible -put it this way; you'd have to shift up to the Fostex FF165K or FE166E before you get anything that's genuinely better. They have plenty of LF heft -remarkable LF heft actually for a 5in driver.
Re the HH resonator as a tweak -possibly. Everything I do is in MathCad I hasten to add -I'm a rather, er, vocal supporter of Martin. Modelling it might be tricky. To be honest though, I don't think they need it. Most of the response nulls you see in the 1/2 space sims are flattened in-room. They might be useful if you tuned an enclosure far too low, or put the driver in the wrong position; other than that, I doubt you'd gain much from it. Most people when they build these boxes kind of forget about tweaking after they've heard them once... ;-)
If you can't find Colour of Spring; look for Frankie Goes to Hollywood: Welcome to the Pleasure Dome. Then rock out.
I haven't found they need a tweeter at all though -the slight ripple in the response isn't particularly audible -put it this way; you'd have to shift up to the Fostex FF165K or FE166E before you get anything that's genuinely better. They have plenty of LF heft -remarkable LF heft actually for a 5in driver.
Re the HH resonator as a tweak -possibly. Everything I do is in MathCad I hasten to add -I'm a rather, er, vocal supporter of Martin. Modelling it might be tricky. To be honest though, I don't think they need it. Most of the response nulls you see in the 1/2 space sims are flattened in-room. They might be useful if you tuned an enclosure far too low, or put the driver in the wrong position; other than that, I doubt you'd gain much from it. Most people when they build these boxes kind of forget about tweaking after they've heard them once... ;-)
If you can't find Colour of Spring; look for Frankie Goes to Hollywood: Welcome to the Pleasure Dome. Then rock out.
Hear hear! Pleasure dome it is (but without a dome )
Listen also to Mike Oldfields Down to earth. Not exactly natural instruments but I could suddenly hear vocals behind leading singer that was not there before. And real depth in bass!
The King and Clapton has also a good stomp in the bass drum, however not so accurate recorded but fun to listen to
Cheers/Peter
Pleasure dome it is (but without a dome ) Listen also to Mike Oldfields Down to earth. Not exactly natural instruments but I could suddenly hear vocals behind leading singer that was not there before. And real depth in bass!
The King and Clapton has also a good stomp in the bass drum, however not so accurate recorded but fun to listen to
Cheers/Peter