I was thinking the 15LX60 looked about right. I never thought about car audio units working in this load to be honest -I don't often look at them. Obviously I should pay more attention to what they get up to in future -thanks for the heads up. 🙂 Anything that strikes you as being particularly good Greg?
So basically your saying that a full range speaker with only a single driver and reasonable cost is not going to happen I my room.
I knew it was to good to be true... 🙂
Thanks anyway though.
I knew it was to good to be true... 🙂
Thanks anyway though.
There will always be compromises for a full range driver. BIBs aid to remove some of the compromise in the lower octaves. If the world was perfect, there wouldn't be forums like these 🙂Lars Timm said:
I would suggest going with a 6-8 inch FR driver with a cheap tweeter ran parallel with a simple cap. Unless you listen to full fledge metal or rap, I don't think you will be particularly disappointed. Also remember to not expect the best speaker in the world out of the box. Theres always tweeks for both the driver and enclosure to improve the sound 😉
Cheers,
Sergio
Not exactly 'not going to happen', it depends on what you percieve and value. As noted above, everything's a compromise, and the BIB, especially in the LF, is compromised far less than a lot of other FR setups. Also, it depends on what you happen to listen to. Greg as ever is 100% correct, & I agree wholeheartedly with what he says. Remember, as noted, you can always add a sub if you're not happy. Also, it's worth remembering that if you don't require the ability to handle full orchestral (or heavy metal) dynamic swings at ~live levels, then chances are you'd probably be rather pleased by what an 8in Fostex unit in a BIB would do. It'd certainly give the average commercial speakers under a couple of grand a hell of a fright, and many people are pretty happy with less stringent requirements. To achieve optimal transient handling at high SPLs really needs a serious HE setup, which would make the average commercial floorstander run screaming from the room in terror. Doesn't have to cost a ludicrous amount, but it'll still be a whole lot pricier.
Looking back at your requirements, you'll certainly get music throughout the room, one assumes critical listening will not be required around the corner 😉 so that in itself won't be a problem. 3m distance for main listening could be worse, especially as horn loading keeps the efficiency up. Nope, it won't match a setup with multipe HE 15in woofers per side & compression horn loaded mids & tweeters, but nothing will, bluntly, so they're not alone. If you fancy trying it, I'd forget the 6 1/2in drivers in ta room that size and go for the 8in. If the FE208ESigma's too pricy for you, the FE206E is an excellent unit with (by the standards of FR drivers) good excursion, and it doesn't require a tweeter (like a sub, you can always add one at a later date if you wished). The attached shot of 206 BIBs appear to be used as a simiar distance FWIW, so YMMV.
Looking back at your requirements, you'll certainly get music throughout the room, one assumes critical listening will not be required around the corner 😉 so that in itself won't be a problem. 3m distance for main listening could be worse, especially as horn loading keeps the efficiency up. Nope, it won't match a setup with multipe HE 15in woofers per side & compression horn loaded mids & tweeters, but nothing will, bluntly, so they're not alone. If you fancy trying it, I'd forget the 6 1/2in drivers in ta room that size and go for the 8in. If the FE208ESigma's too pricy for you, the FE206E is an excellent unit with (by the standards of FR drivers) good excursion, and it doesn't require a tweeter (like a sub, you can always add one at a later date if you wished). The attached shot of 206 BIBs appear to be used as a simiar distance FWIW, so YMMV.
Attachments
The BIBs put out a lot of bass, and very nice bass at that. If you can put them in the corners I doubt that you will be disappointed.
We demo'ed the BOFU BIB
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110703&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
with it's 8" driver at Burning Amp in a 9 meter x 14 meter room with only one in the corner , and the bass was quite impressive. The Bofu has more bass output that a 208 Sigma though..
In my other speakers I use the FE 208 Sigmas with the Aurum Cantus 2si ribbons and like it a LOT. Those ribbons are about $90 ea.
You might want to make a quick and dirty BOFU BIB first, to get an idea if a BIB will work for you.. If it doesn't dd othe job. there's always:
BBBIB:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88104&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Never heard it , but I'm positive that it has enough bass...and inexpensive drivers.
We demo'ed the BOFU BIB
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110703&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
with it's 8" driver at Burning Amp in a 9 meter x 14 meter room with only one in the corner , and the bass was quite impressive. The Bofu has more bass output that a 208 Sigma though..
In my other speakers I use the FE 208 Sigmas with the Aurum Cantus 2si ribbons and like it a LOT. Those ribbons are about $90 ea.
You might want to make a quick and dirty BOFU BIB first, to get an idea if a BIB will work for you.. If it doesn't dd othe job. there's always:
BBBIB:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88104&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Never heard it , but I'm positive that it has enough bass...and inexpensive drivers.
Big holes on thick narrow chipboard
It seems OT, but it isn't.
Now put your metric thinking hats on, please 🙂
This FE166E BIB has 23 cm internal width. I have 15 mm very expensive and cr*ppy 5 layer pine ply so the total width is 26 cm.
I decided to use my best salvaged 😉 1 inch chipboard (I know... I just did it to show I'm flexible) for the front baffle.
Making a 18.5 cm straight (without bevel) hole leaves me with about 7.5 cm material, which is the same to say two pieces of 3.75 cm holding both sides, upper and lower, together. With this massive block of chipboard I am afraid it will break on me as soon as I look aside. This assuming I bore the hole in the front baffle while the BIB is still not assembled. Now I'm thinking in a kind of elliptical beveling to allow breathing while not weakening the sides too much.
I have already made a back Frankenbaffle and don't want to repeat the experience 😉 .
Opinions ? Suggestions ?
Gastón
It seems OT, but it isn't.
Now put your metric thinking hats on, please 🙂
This FE166E BIB has 23 cm internal width. I have 15 mm very expensive and cr*ppy 5 layer pine ply so the total width is 26 cm.
I decided to use my best salvaged 😉 1 inch chipboard (I know... I just did it to show I'm flexible) for the front baffle.
Making a 18.5 cm straight (without bevel) hole leaves me with about 7.5 cm material, which is the same to say two pieces of 3.75 cm holding both sides, upper and lower, together. With this massive block of chipboard I am afraid it will break on me as soon as I look aside. This assuming I bore the hole in the front baffle while the BIB is still not assembled. Now I'm thinking in a kind of elliptical beveling to allow breathing while not weakening the sides too much.
I have already made a back Frankenbaffle and don't want to repeat the experience 😉 .
Opinions ? Suggestions ?
Gastón
Hi Ghpicard, one way you could go about it, if you havent already done it, is to cut the hole before you cut the chipboard to baffle width, then screw some(any?) waste timber along the lenght of the front of the baffle across the hole and in places where it wont get in the way of cutting and joining etc. . This will act as a splint and can be removed once the box is built, and then fill the holes. Dont know about bevelling, but I'd say an important consideration is that you have plenty of meat to screw into for the driver, other than this consideration it would be a good idea I guess. Regards, Andrew
New pair of pipe-horns will shortly be in the works for my FE208ESigmas, which will be arriving after Christmas / New Year (let's be honest: would you fancy your precious Sigmas being shipped from California to the UK before Christmas, when there's a flood of parcels going through, and none of them likely to be handled very carefully?). Not sure if they'll strictly be BIBs yet, or have some other tweaks, but it'll be good to get the horns back, love my MLTLs though I do. 🙂
What would be the smallest distance from the floor if I wanted to invert a pair of BIB's, that wouldn't affect the mouth exit?.. I already have a pair of inverted BIB's with my fe108's that sound wonderful, and may try to build another set for some 6'' drivers... Dave🙂
Find the effective radius of the terminus and multiply it by 0.613 and 3 to get a range to try.
GM
GM
New BIB Project
Here is just a quick pic of a new BIB. 95% complete. Made a flip top to the cabinet. No more bad kitty. Four of these were made, used mainly for HT use. Had a concern with placing four in the room, and wavelengths canceling. After measuring, seemed safe. After testing, very pleased, no noticable cancellation.
Here is just a quick pic of a new BIB. 95% complete. Made a flip top to the cabinet. No more bad kitty. Four of these were made, used mainly for HT use. Had a concern with placing four in the room, and wavelengths canceling. After measuring, seemed safe. After testing, very pleased, no noticable cancellation.
Attachments
Greets!
FYI, yesterday in another thread it was pointed out to me that the calc for 'Sm' in my example listed on the BIB build page is incorrect and since my spreadsheet calc'd the right answer, in my haste assumed the example was correct also without bothering to look at it since AFAIK all I did was convert my spreadsheet to recognizable formulas.
Fortunately, Santiu wouldn't be so easily dismissed, so once I actually looked at it became depressingly obvious I'd screwed up since for the 'Sm' calc I posted the full height instead of the folded height to divide by to arrive at the right answer, so the correct formula is:
Sm = 2.10804*1728/48.088 = 75.751"^2
..........or if divided by the line length:
Sm = 2.10804*1728/(96.175/2) = 75.751"^2
The revised example for Godzilla to cut/paste into the BIB build site page:
L = 13464.54/2/70 = 96.175"
folded height = 96.175"/2 = 48.088"
Vb = 20*0.29*0.445^1.25 = 2.10804 ft^3
Sm = 2.10804*1728/48.088 = 75.751"^2
depth = SQRT((75.751*SQRT(2)) = 10.35"
width = 75.751/10.35 = 7.319"
zdriver = 96.175*0.217 = 20.87"
a-b-c = 10.35/2 = 5.175"
Sorry for any confusion this may have caused and/or too small (potentially bass shy) a BIB built, if any.
GM
PS: Note that mine and Scott's spreadsheets calc slightly different length, etc., dims due to each assuming a slightly different way of loacating the internal baffle board, but regardless of which SS or BB location used, the cab's Vb is large enough that it will be completely inaudible.
FYI, yesterday in another thread it was pointed out to me that the calc for 'Sm' in my example listed on the BIB build page is incorrect and since my spreadsheet calc'd the right answer, in my haste assumed the example was correct also without bothering to look at it since AFAIK all I did was convert my spreadsheet to recognizable formulas.
Fortunately, Santiu wouldn't be so easily dismissed, so once I actually looked at it became depressingly obvious I'd screwed up since for the 'Sm' calc I posted the full height instead of the folded height to divide by to arrive at the right answer, so the correct formula is:
Sm = 2.10804*1728/48.088 = 75.751"^2
..........or if divided by the line length:
Sm = 2.10804*1728/(96.175/2) = 75.751"^2
The revised example for Godzilla to cut/paste into the BIB build site page:
L = 13464.54/2/70 = 96.175"
folded height = 96.175"/2 = 48.088"
Vb = 20*0.29*0.445^1.25 = 2.10804 ft^3
Sm = 2.10804*1728/48.088 = 75.751"^2
depth = SQRT((75.751*SQRT(2)) = 10.35"
width = 75.751/10.35 = 7.319"
zdriver = 96.175*0.217 = 20.87"
a-b-c = 10.35/2 = 5.175"
Sorry for any confusion this may have caused and/or too small (potentially bass shy) a BIB built, if any.
GM
PS: Note that mine and Scott's spreadsheets calc slightly different length, etc., dims due to each assuming a slightly different way of loacating the internal baffle board, but regardless of which SS or BB location used, the cab's Vb is large enough that it will be completely inaudible.
Done. Thanks GM!
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-howtobuild.asp
BIB calculators at top of link. Enjoy!
Peace,
Godzilla
>>> The revised example for Godzilla to cut/paste into the BIB build site page:
L = 13464.54/2/70 = 96.175"
folded height = 96.175"/2 = 48.088"
Vb = 20*0.29*0.445^1.25 = 2.10804 ft^3
Sm = 2.10804*1728/48.088 = 75.751"^2
depth = SQRT((75.751*SQRT(2)) = 10.35"
width = 75.751/10.35 = 7.319"
zdriver = 96.175*0.217 = 20.87"
a-b-c = 10.35/2 = 5.175"
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-howtobuild.asp
BIB calculators at top of link. Enjoy!
Peace,
Godzilla
>>> The revised example for Godzilla to cut/paste into the BIB build site page:
L = 13464.54/2/70 = 96.175"
folded height = 96.175"/2 = 48.088"
Vb = 20*0.29*0.445^1.25 = 2.10804 ft^3
Sm = 2.10804*1728/48.088 = 75.751"^2
depth = SQRT((75.751*SQRT(2)) = 10.35"
width = 75.751/10.35 = 7.319"
zdriver = 96.175*0.217 = 20.87"
a-b-c = 10.35/2 = 5.175"
BIB Pics...
Send me your BIB pics and i will try to add them for the holidays.
godzilla3@hotmail.com
Current pics from early builders below:
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-pics.asp
I'd like to add some of the newer builds!
Godzilla
Send me your BIB pics and i will try to add them for the holidays.
godzilla3@hotmail.com
Current pics from early builders below:
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-pics.asp
I'd like to add some of the newer builds!
Godzilla
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1377692#post1377692
here's a link to the maker
http://jantzen-audio.com/download/PD_JA8008_Oct07_v1-f.pdf
I had never heard that Jantzen made them, but they might be great with a nice tweeter in a BIB. No whizzer cone , go up to about 5k..
Wonder if they will work in an existing design..
here's a link to the maker
http://jantzen-audio.com/download/PD_JA8008_Oct07_v1-f.pdf
I had never heard that Jantzen made them, but they might be great with a nice tweeter in a BIB. No whizzer cone , go up to about 5k..
Wonder if they will work in an existing design..
The design that the designer of the Jantzen came up with is basically a quarter wave ML BIB. with a fairly low volume (notice how it is half the line length of the BIB below)
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.htm
The important stats for the JA8008 are so close to the FF-165 (resonance and Vas are equal, QT is about 20% higher) that I bet they will plug in directly to the FF-165 BIB. Technically they should have a little more volume (due to the higher Q) ->bib calc tells me 80*13.2*9.3 Zdriver 34.7
In a BIB application It might be good to place the tweeter below the woofer (should place the tweeter at about 40 inches in height)
then use the designers tweeter + waveguide and crossover and you are in business.
Sean
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.htm
The important stats for the JA8008 are so close to the FF-165 (resonance and Vas are equal, QT is about 20% higher) that I bet they will plug in directly to the FF-165 BIB. Technically they should have a little more volume (due to the higher Q) ->bib calc tells me 80*13.2*9.3 Zdriver 34.7
In a BIB application It might be good to place the tweeter below the woofer (should place the tweeter at about 40 inches in height)
then use the designers tweeter + waveguide and crossover and you are in business.
Sean
?new? Seas full range
Has any one run the numbers on this beauty? Either in a BiB or in the Spawn family?
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/seas/Exotic_F8-X1 2 .pdf
Cheers,
Ryan
Has any one run the numbers on this beauty? Either in a BiB or in the Spawn family?
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/seas/Exotic_F8-X1 2 .pdf
Cheers,
Ryan
Beauty? Not bad for a driver, & as it's from Seas, the engineering will be decent, but it's not exactly Gwen Stefani / Lauren Laverne. 😉
A BIB would be big, given the high Vas & mid Q. FWIW, I get a 219in line length, 26.75in wide x 18.875in deep (rounded to the nearest sensible figures. Before anyone asks, yes, you will probably get slightly different results depending on what SOS in air you use. But it's so big by this point small differences will be swallowed up).
I might do a doubled box for it -should work well in something like that. 🙂
A BIB would be big, given the high Vas & mid Q. FWIW, I get a 219in line length, 26.75in wide x 18.875in deep (rounded to the nearest sensible figures. Before anyone asks, yes, you will probably get slightly different results depending on what SOS in air you use. But it's so big by this point small differences will be swallowed up).
I might do a doubled box for it -should work well in something like that. 🙂